What is the purpose of S45VN, cf S30V?

[Bolster]

What is the purpose of S45VN, cf S30V?

S45VN’s card cut is around 520 compared to S30V which is in the 600 range, according to a Doc Thomas graphic.

S45VN has about the same or a little more toughness as S30V (both around 6 ft-lbs in some graphs, other graphs show S45VN toughness getting up to 7-8, still nothing to write home about)

S45VN is run maybe 1+Rc harder than S30V, depending on treat (doesn’t seem much)

Both have about the same amount of carbides (around 20%)

Is it just the slightly increased chromium content (maybe +1.5% cf S30V)?

It seems like a very slight upgrade to S30V, unless you consider card cut, in which case it may be a downgrade...would a user even be able to tell the difference between the two, if not for the label?

[Rinzler]

I can’t comment on the purpose, but solely that it ISN’T s30v, I already like it.

[TomAiello]

How's the edge stability?

What about grindability? Easier to work steel (resulting in less production cost, resulting in less expensive knives with similar quality) is worth working toward.

Card cutting isn't really the only factor to consider in a steel, especially for a production knife.

[PeanutButterFan]

The main reason is to sell more blades. 99.999 percent of users probably won’t be able to discern any difference in performance. Just another latest ands “greatest” steel

[Naperville]

I think that you have to look at where bladesmiths and manufacturers are using it to see what it is good for.

If you look at S30V it is primarily used at a high hardness in folders that have 3.5 in blades. There may be a fixed blade here and there in S30V but it is probably run very soft.

S35VN was/is being used in folders and fixed blades up to 7in in length, and that it where S45VN is going to be used.

[Deadboxhero]

Finer Carbides, improved corrison resistance, easier to grind and finish, improved toughness at higher hardness.

It's more balanced.

I also like the edge taking better than S35vn, comes up crisper at the edge.

[Donut]

S35VN was/is being used in folders and fixed blades up to 7in in length, and that it where S45VN is going to be used.

I thought S35VN was terrible for fixed blades judging by how many people are breaking the ESEEs made from it.

The OP, S35VN has slightly more edge retention and slightly more toughness. If that is important to you, then S35VN is important. I don't mind having better edge retention and toughness, so I'd take S35VN over S30V if the price difference wasn't too crazy.

Wasn't S35VN made because people complained about S30V?

[Deadboxhero]

S35VN was/is being used in folders and fixed blades up to 7in in length, and that it where S45VN is going to be used.

I thought S35VN was terrible for fixed blades judging by how many people are breaking the ESEEs made from it.

The OP, S35VN has slightly more edge retention and slightly more toughness. If that is important to you, then S35VN is important. I don't mind having better edge retention and toughness, so I'd take S35VN over S30V if the price difference wasn't too crazy.

Wasn't S35VN made because people complained about S30V?

S30v cuts longer in controlled testing.

More carbide volume = more cutting

[Naperville]

S35VN was/is being used in folders and fixed blades up to 7in in length, and that it where S45VN is going to be used.

I thought S35VN was terrible for fixed blades judging by how many people are breaking the ESEEs made from it.

The OP, S35VN has slightly more edge retention and slightly more toughness. If that is important to you, then S35VN is important. I don't mind having better edge retention and toughness, so I'd take S35VN over S30V if the price difference wasn't too crazy.

Wasn't S35VN made because people complained about S30V?

Spartan Blades and Chris Reeve Knives were using S35VN for their large knives. Spartan is in the process of moving to S45VN.

Bushcrafting is NOT the same implementation or style of knife use as self defense, and military use. I do not know how designers decide on knife attributes and steels, but ESEE does not design the same type of knives as Spartan or CRK.

[JohnDoe99]

What is the purpose of S45VN, cf S30V?

S45VN’s card cut is around 520 compared to S30V which is in the 600 range, according to a Doc Thomas graphic.

S45VN has about the same or a little more toughness as S30V (both around 6 ft-lbs in some graphs, other graphs show S45VN toughness getting up to 7-8, still nothing to write home about)

S45VN is run maybe 1+Rc harder than S30V, depending on treat (doesn’t seem much)

Both have about the same amount of carbides (around 20%)

Is it just the slightly increased chromium content (maybe +1.5% cf S30V)?

It seems like a very slight upgrade to S30V, unless you consider card cut, in which case it may be a downgrade...would a user even be able to tell the difference between the two, if not for the label?

s45vn is a step away from s35vn, itself a step away from s30v, and SPY27 or w/e is a step away from s45vn. What are we stepping away from? Vanadium carbide. Regardless of Crucible's marketing, vanadium knives just struggle to take and maintain a keen edge, and when you push the carbon content high enough, the toughness falls off just the same as chromium. So for awhile Crucible has toyed with s30vn to try to get both good toughness and wear resistance, and this entailed a progressive lowering of carbon and vanadium content. It turns out to be impossible. The differences between s30v, s35vn, and s45vn are all marginal and academic, and none of them take keen edges well.

[Deadboxhero]

What is the purpose of S45VN, cf S30V?

S45VN’s card cut is around 520 compared to S30V which is in the 600 range, according to a Doc Thomas graphic.

S45VN has about the same or a little more toughness as S30V (both around 6 ft-lbs in some graphs, other graphs show S45VN toughness getting up to 7-8, still nothing to write home about)

S45VN is run maybe 1+Rc harder than S30V, depending on treat (doesn’t seem much)

Both have about the same amount of carbides (around 20%)

Is it just the slightly increased chromium content (maybe +1.5% cf S30V)?

It seems like a very slight upgrade to S30V, unless you consider card cut, in which case it may be a downgrade...would a user even be able to tell the difference between the two, if not for the label?

s45vn is a step away from s35vn, itself a step away from s30v, and SPY27 or w/e is a step away from s45vn. What are we stepping away from? Vanadium carbide. Regardless of Crucible's marketing, vanadium knives just struggle to take and maintain a keen edge, and when you push the carbon content high enough, the toughness falls off just the same as chromium. So for awhile Crucible has toyed with s30vn to try to get both good toughness and wear resistance, and this entailed a progressive lowering of carbon and vanadium content. It turns out to be impossible. The differences between s30v, s35vn, and s45vn are all marginal and academic, and none of them take keen edges well.

It's the sharpening that determines the edge

[Bolster]

Interesting discussion. Regards the following:

I can’t comment on the purpose, but solely that it ISN’T s30v, I already like it.

Wasn't S35VN made because people complained about S30V?

One of the reasons I'm asking the question, is that I wonder if making a rather similar steel (IMO) and giving it a higher numbered name, is to leave behind the reservations that some afi's have about S30V. I'm curious if it's primarily a marketing move, or is it actually a significant recipe upgrade. It looks like a modest reformulation of S30V to me, but I'm not an expert, thus the question. Maybe +1.5% Cr makes a big difference. Maybe +0.2% N is big. Maybe +0.5 Nb is big. Maybe -1% V is big. Maybe all these small changes together are big. If it is a "big" upgrade I'd expect the end user to readily perceive a difference. It sounds like at least some of you who have experienced S45V regard it as a significant upgrade.

[Deadboxhero]

Interesting discussion. Regards the following:

I can’t comment on the purpose, but solely that it ISN’T s30v, I already like it.

Wasn't S35VN made because people complained about S30V?

One of the reasons I'm asking the question, is that I wonder if making a rather similar steel (IMO) and giving it a higher numbered name, is to leave behind the reservations that some afi's have about S30V. I'm curious if it's primarily a marketing move, or is it actually a significant recipe upgrade. It looks like a modest reformulation of S30V to me, but I'm not an expert, thus the question. Maybe +1.5% Cr makes a big difference. Maybe +0.2% N is big. Maybe +0.5 Nb is big. Maybe -1% V is big. Maybe all these small changes together are big. If it is a "big" upgrade I'd expect the end user to readily perceive a difference. It sounds like at least some of you who have experienced S45V regard it as a significant upgrade.

It is an "improvement" using what was learned over the last decade to update S30v/s35vn. It's not going to anecdotally be vastly significant, however some discerning users may see the merit.

When it comes to making knives S45vn offers some unique advantages with customizing the heat treatment.

[Rp5]

Finer Carbides, improved corrison resistance, easier to grind and finish, improved toughness at higher hardness.

It's more balanced.

I also like the edge taking better than S35vn, comes up crisper at the edge.

Pretty much answers the thread.

[Bolster]

Pretty much answers the thread.

I suppose you're right; I asked the question as if it were binary: "Is it better?" Answer, yes, it's on the whole, better. I should have asked, "To what degree is it better for the end user?" and the impression I'm getting from this thread is: "It's a little better, you might not be able to notice much of a difference in use."

I'm smarting a little bit over the fact that its toughness is only a very modest upgrade to S30V, and it appears to give up some cutting ability for it. Never had a problem with S30V rusting in the first place. But, I'll live. Don't worry about me. I'll be fine. I found a half gallon of ice cream in the freezer, and I've already stopped crying.

[Rp5]

The average person probably won't notice much difference in cutting... same as S30V and S35VN. People that sharpen their knives, makers, and steel nuts in general will notice the difference over time.

Spyderco didn't exactly run out and upgrade their whole line to S35VN either, guess we'll see how much impact S45VN has. It's just a different balance of properties which some people will really enjoy. The cost and value benefit will determine how prevalent it becomes.

[Deadboxhero]

Pretty much answers the thread.

I suppose you're right; I asked the question as if it were binary: "Is it better?" Answer, yes, it's on the whole, better. I should have asked, "To what degree is it better for the end user?" and the impression I'm getting from this thread is: "It's a little better, you might not be able to notice much of a difference in use."

I'm smarting a little bit over the fact that its toughness is only a very modest upgrade to S30V, and it appears to give up some cutting ability for it. Never had a problem with S30V rusting in the first place. But, I'll live. Don't worry about me. I'll be fine. I found a half gallon of ice cream in the freezer, and I've already stopped crying.

I mean you'll have folks swear that Elmax is above and beyond S30v yet controlled testing shows it's less wear resistant, lower toughness and coarser structured.



Just goes to the why the end user is the biggest variable and especially the sharpening.

So give the S45vn a try and see what you think.

I enjoy it myself, if I had the option.

[Donut]

S35VN was/is being used in folders and fixed blades up to 7in in length, and that it where S45VN is going to be used.

I thought S35VN was terrible for fixed blades judging by how many people are breaking the ESEEs made from it.

The OP, S35VN has slightly more edge retention and slightly more toughness. If that is important to you, then S35VN is important. I don't mind having better edge retention and toughness, so I'd take S35VN over S30V if the price difference wasn't too crazy.

Wasn't S35VN made because people complained about S30V?

Spartan Blades and Chris Reeve Knives were using S35VN for their large knives. Spartan is in the process of moving to S45VN.

Bushcrafting is NOT the same implementation or style of knife use as self defense, and military use. I do not know how designers decide on knife attributes and steels, but ESEE does not design the same type of knives as Spartan or CRK.

I thought it was Chris Reeve who helped Crucible create S35VN. He's kind of obligated to find a use for it.

ESEE makes more of an all rounder, they don't make a fixed blade that will only do a few things very well.

[Donut]

Interesting discussion. Regards the following:

I can’t comment on the purpose, but solely that it ISN’T s30v, I already like it.

Wasn't S35VN made because people complained about S30V?

One of the reasons I'm asking the question, is that I wonder if making a rather similar steel (IMO) and giving it a higher numbered name, is to leave behind the reservations that some afi's have about S30V. I'm curious if it's primarily a marketing move, or is it actually a significant recipe upgrade. It looks like a modest reformulation of S30V to me, but I'm not an expert, thus the question. Maybe +1.5% Cr makes a big difference. Maybe +0.2% N is big. Maybe +0.5 Nb is big. Maybe -1% V is big. Maybe all these small changes together are big. If it is a "big" upgrade I'd expect the end user to readily perceive a difference. It sounds like at least some of you who have experienced S45V regard it as a significant upgrade.

I think I agree with you. We'll have to see what the market thinks.

Kind of like XHP, the numbers and the testing don't make it an awesome steel, but people still love it and XHP sells for more money than some other steels that perform better than it.

There is also a group of people who won't buy S35VN because of that youtuber who could bend the blades while testing when it first came out.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, All:

This is Crucible's stated intent in creating CPM S45VN as explained in their spec sheet:

CPM S45VN is a martensitic stainless steel designed to offer improved corrosion and wear resistance over CPM S35VN. Its chemistry has been rebalanced so that it forms more chromium carbides, while at the same time leaving more free chromium in the matrix. The use of Niobium and Nitrogen in place of some of the Vanadium and Carbon produces an excellent combination of edge retention, wear resistance, corrosion resistance and toughness properties making this the ideal choice for an EDC knife steel.

Stay safe,

Mike