Slow on the Draw

[bruce91748]

So questions is can a folding knife be drawn and put to use quicker than a pistol from its holster????

[yablanowitz]

Probably, but the pistol has a lot more range.

[Sumdumguy]

So questions is can a folding knife be drawn and put to use quicker than a pistol from its holster????

I'd say my Seecamp comes out of my pocket quicker and with better effect.

Unless I'm hands on, I'm running or gunning.

[Danke]

Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

You can open a Manix with just the lock button. No need to finger flick, drop, etc.

[Bolster]

So questions is can a folding knife be drawn and put to use quicker than a pistol from its holster????

This source:

https://sofrep.com/gear/shocking-facts-gun-fights/

says:

Time to Draw (a pistol) from a Holster 1.19 seconds
Time to Raise (a pistol) and Fire 0.59 seconds

[Naperville]

So questions is can a folding knife be drawn and put to use quicker than a pistol from its holster????

Fixed Blade, YES, without a doubt. Watch the Ray Dionaldo videos.

Folder, Probably, but you've really got to hustle.

[Naperville]

So questions is can a folding knife be drawn and put to use quicker than a pistol from its holster????

This source:

https://sofrep.com/gear/shocking-facts-gun-fights/

says:

Time to Draw (a pistol) from a Holster 1.19 seconds
Time to Raise (a pistol) and Fire 0.59 seconds[/size]

If YOU are my intended target and I have a knife, I am not going to draw the knife until I am within 3 feet of you.

[Bolster]

If YOU are my intended target and I have a knife, I am not going to draw the knife until I am within 3 feet of you.

In that case, I'm glad you live in Illinois and I live in California.

[vivi]

The issue is most people pinch the butt end of the knife when they draw.

The idea behind a quick draw is to retrieve your knife with a grip closest to the one you use to open the knife.

https://streamable.com/0kwvwh

Slow mo wrong way, slow mo right way, regular speed

For a long tip up knife like the Police in my pocket, that means getting my thumb as close to the opening hole before I start pulling the knife out of my pocket.

Spydie dropping a tip down folder takes longer and requires more manipulation of the grip. Bigger chance you'll drop it in the process than using this method with a tip up folder in my experience.

Of course, waves trump all other folders in this respect. If I ever decide to carry a folding knife for self defense, I would buy a waved Endura or wave a Police.

[TkoK83Spy]

Get you a Microtech OTF with a double edge and call it a day.

[kobold]

"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast."

-- Navy SEAL saying

[Naperville]

If YOU are my intended target and I have a knife, I am not going to draw the knife until I am within 3 feet of you.

In that case, I'm glad you live in Illinois and I live in California.

I guess that I should finish that thought.

Knife duels are not a good idea. If under 15 feet distance to a target, a knife can beat a firearm, but why risk it. A knife is not a firearm, and it cannot really be employed beyond 3 feet, so don't take it out until you are within striking distance.

I am not a commando or assassin, just a little trained in using knives through the martial arts of Kali, Escrima and Arnis.

[Bill1170]

I can draw and open my knives so fast that bags of chips don’t stand a chance. I’m a snack food ninja.

[bdblue]

That all sounds perfectly normal for a tip up knife, including fumbling around and occasionally dropping the half open knife on your foot. There's a reason the early Clipits were tip down.

Tip up knives can be problematic in this regards, depending on the knife size and the clothing that you wear. To deploy a tip up knife in a reasonable amount of time, at least for me, requires a relatively short knife and/or loose clothes that allow me to reach my hand inside my pocket. I'm tall with long fingers, and my jeans are typically pretty tight, and despite having long fingers I can't reach my hand into my pocket to where the thumb hole is. I can open a long tip down knife much faster. We have this argument frequently about tip up vs tip down and the people favoring tip up seem to like it for reasons other than fast deployment.

My strategy for deploying a Manix 2 is to grab the tip of the knife with thumb and first finger, pull it out, let go of the knife and quickly move my hand down so I can grab the knife near the bottom end before it falls, then I can open it. It works fine under normal circumstances but would not be very secure.

I still like my Manix 2 models and still carry and use them, probably more than my PM2 and Military models, but the PM2 and Military are quicker to deploy.

[Sumdumguy]

That all sounds perfectly normal for a tip up knife, including fumbling around and occasionally dropping the half open knife on your foot. There's a reason the early Clipits were tip down.

Tip up knives can be problematic in this regards, depending on the knife size and the clothing that you wear. To deploy a tip up knife in a reasonable amount of time, at least for me, requires a relatively short knife and/or loose clothes that allow me to reach my hand inside my pocket. I'm tall with long fingers, and my jeans are typically pretty tight, and despite having long fingers I can't reach my hand into my pocket to where the thumb hole is. I can open a long tip down knife much faster. We have this argument frequently about tip up vs tip down and the people favoring tip up seem to like it for reasons other than fast deployment.

My strategy for deploying a Manix 2 is to grab the tip of the knife with thumb and first finger, pull it out, let go of the knife and quickly move my hand down so I can grab the knife near the bottom end before it falls, then I can open it. It works fine under normal circumstances but would not be very secure.

I still like my Manix 2 models and still carry and use them, probably more than my PM2 and Military models, but the PM2 and Military are quicker to deploy.

I made this for another person. But, I feel it will benefit you aswell.

Edit : Haha, this is the thread I made it for! :facepalm:

https://youtu.be/e7qk5GEgMzQ

[Michael Janich]

Yep, and in a situation like that I can draw a tip down Military or Police model (before they screwed up the clip placement) by the Spyderhole and drop the handle open faster than I can get a tip up knife out of my pocket. Food for thought.

The "Spydie Drop" was the favored opening technique in the early days of Spyderco. It is still the favored technique with the knives you mention--the Police Model and the Military (which doesn't even offer the option of tip-up carry). The down side to the Spydie Drop is that the contact area of your hand is very limited. It's basically just a pinch grip of the thumb and index finger. While it's fast, you don't end up with a secure grip and you must adjust your grip significantly before you can cut or thrust with any real effect.

My point was, and still is, that tip-up carry works well and requires less post-opening grip adjustment--provided you choose a knife size and clip carry height that are appropriate to your hand size. If you carry a Police Model tip-up and have small hands, no matter how deep you dig before you draw, you'll still end up with a grip that puts your thumb too far away from the Round Hole to open the blade. If you have big hands, however, it can and does work just fine. The benefits are that that you achieve as close to your final grip as possible before you draw the knife and you have greater surface area contact between your hand and the handle.

When drawing a pistol, the goal is to achieve the critical elements of your master firing grip (the last three fingers) while it's still in the holster. That way no adjustment is necessary once you orient the gun and move your index finger to the trigger. Tip-up carry achieves this better than tip-down.

With all that said, we are all products--and sometimes victims--of our own experience. Once you've spent a lot of time getting good at a skill, it's yours and you can make it work when you need to. That's awesome. However, if there are alternate methods that allow others to achieve equal or better results in a shorter period of time, we shouldn't dismiss them because they don't fit our personal preferences.

Unlike traditional Filipino martial arts, in MBC we spend a lot of time on "earning our draw." We practice getting adrenalized by hitting pads, doing high-speed drills, and doing high-intensity unarmed defenses before initiating our drawstrokes. My students have tried just about every solution to the problem--including different carry methods, opening styles, Waves, etc. We use the same method to "earn our draw" under pressure with guns. We don't claim to know everything, but we've worked very hard to earn worthy opinions.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Pokey]

Since my folders are not meant for SD, I usually have them in a sheath of some sort in a lower cargo pocket. Talk about slow!

I’m thinking of that famous scene from “Crocodile Dundee” right now. Slow is ok, but size matters. :D

[bdblue]

The "Spydie Drop" was the favored opening technique in the early days of Spyderco. It is still the favored technique with the knives you mention--the Police Model and the Military (which doesn't even offer the option of tip-up carry). The down side to the Spydie Drop is that the contact area of your hand is very limited. It's basically just a pinch grip of the thumb and index finger. While it's fast, you don't end up with a secure grip and you must adjust your grip significantly before you can cut or thrust with any real effect.

I have to adjust my grip significantly more with tip up than with tip down.

My point was, and still is, that tip-up carry works well and requires less post-opening grip adjustment--provided you choose a knife size and clip carry height that are appropriate to your hand size. If you carry a Police Model tip-up and have small hands, no matter how deep you dig before you draw, you'll still end up with a grip that puts your thumb too far away from the Round Hole to open the blade.

I have big hands and this works for me as long as I use a knife the size of the Delica or smaller. But I never carry a knife smaller than a PM2.

When drawing a pistol, the goal is to achieve the critical elements of your master firing grip (the last three fingers) while it's still in the holster. That way no adjustment is necessary once you orient the gun and move your index finger to the trigger. Tip-up carry achieves this better than tip-down.

I've studied this with knives to try to determine what I'm missing. The way that I dress I cannot do this with any knife clip orientation. However I've watched youtube videos of people getting a good grip on their knives while in their pocket, but they were wearing pajamas. I rarely wear pajamas, and never carry a knife while I'm wearing pajamas. I think the key is that you need very large pockets that you can easily fit your entire hand into, or small hands. I don't own any clothes like this, mostly because I typically wear jeans. Without a knife clipped in my pocket I can get my hand into my pocket with a little bit of effort. With a knife in my pocket it is almost possible to get my hand in there, hence why I draw the knife with thumb and index finger. So that makes tip down the lesser of the evils. Nevertheless I still like the Manix 2 so about half of my carry is tip up and half is tip down.

[vivi]

You only need to get a thumb in your pocket.

https://streamable.com/0kwvwh

Mr. Janich is spot on. You take the same thoughts behind a pistol draw and apply them to non-waved folding knives, tip up requires less manipulation to ready than tip down.

Notice I do not pinch with my index finger. On the Police I pinch between my thumb and the middle joint on my middle finger.

It's all about reaching as deep as you can into your pocket with your thumb before squeezing your grip and drawing the knife.

[The Mastiff]

Slow is smooth and smooth is fast.

This may be a SEAL saying but it has been around forever in one fashion or another. I learned it when I was young in relation to martial arts then again close in pistol shooting from the hip coming from the holster to point. It just means that start off slow and doing it correctly then pretty soon you will notice you are getting faster just from repetition muscle memory. It's very true in my experience.

In relation to my knives I find I can get my Endura out from in my pocket ( or clipped to it) and open at the ready faster than I can any other knife including any of my autos. I have never practiced quick drawing my Endura but over the last 28 years I have had Enduras in my RFP and pretty naturally it has become something I can do without thought in the dark and I can close it one handed and replace it almost as quickly. All without trying to practice doing so. Just repetition from daily use.