MAP pricing policy favors amazon. Bad for vendors (that are not Amazon) and consumers.

[ThermalAdvancement]

Map pricing + sales tax + free fast shipping + reputation + return policy = Amazon is favored

It seems that one of the main arguments for any MAP pricing policy is that it helps brick and mortar stores and small online businesses that way big retailers like Amazon will not beat small retailers on price but actually the result seems to be the opposite.

The MAP policy drives customer toward Amazon and away from other vendors!

Many of us do not have a local quality cutlery shop, for those of us that are fortunate to have one they often do not stock what we want, this sends people back to the various online vendors.

When it comes to online shopping, combine the MAP pricing with the fact that nearly everyone is now charging sales tax means retailers must compete in other ways. They will need to complete on shipping cost, services, and convenience and this is where no one can really compete with Amazon.

Amazon offers free 2 day shipping for prime members, and free standard shipping for non prime member on purchases over $30. With Amazon's large size they are able to make deals with the shipping companies, they are paying less for shipping than pretty much any other retailer you going to find. It is hard for other retailers to compete on shipping cost and it's nearly impossible for smaller knife retailers to compete in terms of the services that Amazon provides, explicitly in terms of the return policy. Let me explain....

Let's say I want a Spyderco knife and can't find it anywhere that will sell below the MAP price or will sell without charging sales tax I will turn to Amazon because of the generous return policy. I can order multiples of the same knife from Amazon and they arrive with free shipping in just 2 days. At this point I cherry pick the very best one from the lot then send all the others back to Amazon with Amazon picking up the tab for the return shipping cost. I don't have to try and justify my return to an actual person, I just simply check a box saying I did not think the item met my standards and I am instantly issued the return information. I do not even need to repackage the knives, I simply drop off the knifes in their original spyderco box at the local Kohls that is about 1 mile from me as they handle the Amazon returns.

Now some would say what I am doing is wrong but I'm not actually breaking any of the rules. I am abusing the Amazon return policy, I will freely admit such but as long as said policies are in place I am going to game the system for my advantage.

Now you may say what I'm doing is an extreme example, so what about Joe schmo who just buys a knife occasionally for himself or as a gift. Well, the favoritism toward Amazon in this case is even stronger.

Joe schmo is going to shop around online for about couple minutes and quickly see the knife is the same price everywhere. He might as well just buy it from Amazon with the quick free shipping and for him Amazon is a trusted retailer. Joe schmo is unlikely to have bought from the various specialty online cutlery stores thus without a lower price he has no incentive to purchase from them.

If Mr. Schmo is buying a knife as a gift for someone then Amazon's return policy comes into play much heavier, it will be a major factor as to why Joe Schmo is going to buy from Amazon. If the person doesn't like the knife they can easily exchange it with no questions asked.

I don't really see any advantage of the map pricing policy for the vendors other than Amazon. Furthermore I most certainly do not see any benefit to the consumer, as it seems the MAP pricing policy is universally disliked (myself included).

[The Meat man]

I might be wrong but I think Sal has said that Amazon recently ceased to be a Spyderco dealer.

[ThermalAdvancement]

Even if they aren't there plenty of 3rd party sellers that will still be listing on Amazon. For some of these 3rd party sellers they are actually affiliates of Amazon thus you get the benefits of the prime shipping and Amazon no hassle returns.

[Mushroom]

I agree with most everything you said.

When MAP was first implemented, I also thought I remembered hearing that Spyderco would no longer use Amazon as a dealer. Though during the few years that MAP has been in place, Amazon has always been a Spyderco dealer with what appears to be an official Spyderco storefront.

[SG89]

You make some great points OP

[sal]

Hi ThermalAdvancement,

Welcome to our forum.

At this time, Amazon is handled differently, which was needed just to enforce MAP.. The fact that Amazon is difficult to compete against is a problem for all retailers. They didn't become so big by accident. There some downsides to Amazon which others can explain.

As far as gaming the system, that's your call. I use Amazon, but I also like to support other vendors as well when I purchase anything. I don't game any system, but that's just me. I think that MAP is better than no MAP as far as we can see. You might save a couple of bucks with Amazon, or you may choose to be supportive of other sources? Some that are perhaps more reliable and would treat you with some personal attention.

We are always open to ideas and suggestions?

sal

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"Loyalty before all else except honor"

[DSH007]

Amazon is convenient in that you can buy pretty much anything you can think of there.. that said, I hate them with a fiery passion..

If you're not a prime member (which I'm not because I don't buy enough there for it to be worth the annual cost), they make it abundantly clear that they don't care about you as a customer.. shipping speeds are painfully slow (without prime) and with regard to knives especially, counterfeit concerns are all too real.. and if you ever have a real issue with them, good luck speaking with an actual human being to get it resolved. If they don't use a 3rd party (UPS, USPS) provider, chances are your package will end up down the road some place..

I haven't bought a knife from Amazon in better than a decade and they are among the last places on the internet that I would look for a Spyderco.. I'd rather give the little guy my business. If you're not a prime member, there are definitely benefits to going with other retailers..

[vivi]

Personally, I never shop with Amazon. Every purchase made there instead of a mom and pop knife shop like New Graham makes it tougher for knife shops to exist.

[ThermalAdvancement]

Wow the man himself responded to my thread, very cool! It would take far too many words to express how much I like your products, In short they are awesome. Well enough of my fanboyism and let me get on to my actual reply.

In the days before MAP pricing and online sales tax I don't think I ever ordered a knife from Amazon. I never remember Amazon having the best price, especially on Spyderco. I tended to find much better deals at small mom and pop retailers for knife sales. Shop around for a retailer not in your state with a decent price maybe find a coupon code to stack on top of that and you got a really good deal. At this point Amazon simply was not a good deal and I knew I would be paying sales tax with an Amazon purchase and in my state it's nearly 10%, ouch!

Once MAP pricing came alone I still tended to stay away from Amazon. I could usually find a better deal elsewhere and it was easy to find a vendor that did not have a physical location in my state so no sales tax. Coinciding with this same time window eBay was always running 15% off coupons it seemed. Combine that with the best offer feature and the result was the best deals by far were on eBay from reputable sellers.

After the wayfair ruling online sales tax unfortunately became a reality pretty much everywhere, there are a few vendors that still do not collect it but for the most part you pay sales tax. It was at this point that I began buying some of my Spyderco knives off Amazon.

Now there is really no way most retailers can compete in terms of cost, this was when Amazon became a better looking option.

From my experience the MAP combined with the sales tax didn't do anything but help Amazon and hurt the smaller retailers.

The solution is simple, remove the MAP pricing policy and let vendors advertise and sell the products at any price they want to. If a retailer purchases a product and has it in inventory they should be able to list the product for whatever price they feel necessary to compete.

Furthermore map pricing policies seem to be disliked by nearly all consumers no matter what the product. I've never met anyone that says they actually like the map pricing.

So you have a policy that can and will drive more and more people toward Amazon and said policy is extremely unpopular among your customers, why not just get rid of it?

[Naperville]

Do you know what I buy from Amazon, Kindle books, paperback books, hardcover books, and maybe one day I'll buy some LifeStraws. The books that Amazon does not carry for one reason or another, I buy from that authors publisher. Amazon allows politics to get in the way of what books they carry, so I have been looking around for another source.

I've never bought a knife from Amazon, and I never would. What if they decided for political reasons not to carry a knife that I want? Forgetaboutit! I support knife vendors.

As far as price goes, between the knife vendors that I buy from I do look at prices and stock. I keep a list of the knives that I want and their prices. I keep a list of sales dates. I've never gotten in to the weeds as far as what effect MAP has on me. I have 80+ knives. Over the years I might have been able to save some money, but not much in the overall scheme of things.

[cycleguy]

FWIW ... I use amazon as little as possible and I believe their service isn't that good if an issue does arise. I'm pro small business, something that rubbed off on me from dating a woman raised on a family farm. I'd estimate that 99% of my knife purchases have come from designated knife retailers and culinary shops. I believe I have paid no more for doing so and likely less at times, and I know I have been treated well if an issue did arise. Sorry, but I don't follow your position and I don't think you have proven your point(s).

CG

[RamZar]

Amazon will ban accounts due to “excessive” returns/refunds. In most cases they give you a warning.

[DSH007]

Hah, disregard this post.. I was trying to edit my last post and lost track of how the internet works..

But to reiterate.. amazon is a dumpster fire.. buy knives elsewhere..

[James Y]

I will never buy a Spyderco from Amazon. Period. For various reasons. Among the reasons is, there’s a good chance you’ll end up with a knockoff.

The only knife I ever ordered from Amazon was a Victorinox paring knife.

The dealers I will/have used are: Knifeworks, New Graham, Bladehq, or Knifecenter, in that order. And I’ve received great service.

Otherwise, I use Amazon to buy books (unless the author doesn’t officially sell on Amazon), and certain necessary products I can’t get at the store.

Jim

[The Mastiff]

Not many of us here buy Spydercos through Amazon. One reason is the return policy that you explain and the actions you do to return opened boxes of knives. I wouldn't want a knife you bought, selected and discarded for return. I don't agree that the MAP is responsible for giving an edge either. It's the opposite. It seems your ( the OP's) logic is designed to support the idea that MAP is bad and should be done away with. My opinion is you are proving the opposite. It takes more than one moderately sized knife company to turn back the tide but at least Spyderco is trying.

Joe

[TomAiello]

I use Amazon _a lot_. I have run on-line businesses fulfilling via Amazon, and I buy almost all my normal purchases from Amazon (including things that normal people run to Walmart or Target for).

I _never_ buy Spyderco knives from Amazon. Once you see the back end (as a merchant) it's very easy to understand the counterfeit problem, which is a natural consequence of how Amazon listings work, with commingled inventory and low price 'buy box' awards.

I would not recommend buying anything that other than mass market consumer products from Amazon. It's _fantastic_ for things like note pads, or pens, or generic carrying bags, or a whole host of other things. It is not the right place to purchase an item that you have a specific, educated desire for (good knives, for example, or good sunglasses) because of the total inability of Amazon to prevent counterfeit sales. It's seriously _impossible_ for them to prevent that, given how their fulfillment system works.

Plus, with good online retailers selling Spyderco knives with free shipping (past a certain purchase amount in some cases, but that's almost never a problem for me), and with rewards programs (to counterbalance the extra rewards that Amazon gives me when I 'game' their system by using the Amazon credit card), the dollar cost is close enough that it makes absolutely no sense to take the extra risk of buying a knife from Amazon.

In general, I think Spyderco is doing their best to help the small retailers to survive, and I appreciate it. I buy all my knives from knife specific retailers, and will continue to do so.


Funny thought, but imagine what a circus it would be if Amazon sold firearms. Why the heck would you buy one from them?

[Mushroom]

I avoid buying Spyderco knives on Amazon but I know my buying habits do not reflect the majority of consumers. MAP has considerably slowed down my Spyderco buying habits but it hasn't changed where I personally shop for my Spyderco knives. I still prefer to use small, specialized, retailers.

Obviously, the general consumer has no problem buying Spyderco knives from Amazon though, considering MAP was implemented for small retailers to compete with the big retailers like them. In theory, MAP should work to really benefit the smaller retailers. The problem I see arise is when the big retailer decides not to follow the MAP rules. They list for less than MAP with no repercussions and get the sale from the general consumer anyway.

I'm not suggesting anything by asking these questions, I'm just thinking out loud, so to speak. Is it possible to prevent Amazon from selling Spyderco at all? How beneficial is it to have a brand presence on Amazon? I imagine they alone bring a lot of brand awareness to Spyderco.

Maybe we should be asking our favorite retailers for more sales. It could help to direct traffic to their website. There was a retailer that did a 30% off MAP sale recently and their entire inventory was nearly wiped clean in a few days.

[The Meat man]

Maybe we should be asking our favorite retailers for more sales. It could help to direct traffic to their website. There was a retailer that did a 30% off MAP sale recently and their entire inventory was nearly wiped clean in a few days.

^This! There's no rule against having sales, is there?

[nerdlock]

I bought 2 Spydercos from Amazon. It was sold by Photo4less. I paid a good price for it, much better than buying it from any online dealer. And because it wasn't a Para3 /PM2 but an obscure model, I'm fairly certain it is not counterfeit in any way possible. This amazon seller offers amazing discounts on not well known designs, most recently the Opus which was sold for $120. Just chiming in that not all Amazon sellers sell counterfeit Spyderco junk. You just have to know where to look and what to look for.

[nerdlock]

Maybe we should be asking our favorite retailers for more sales. It could help to direct traffic to their website. There was a retailer that did a 30% off MAP sale recently and their entire inventory was nearly wiped clean in a few days.

Benchmade offers sales multiple times times. Recently bought a 20cv G10 Bugout for $50 off its retail price on BHQ as have several others here. I usually don't buy BMs but I am a sucker for sweet deals and wouldn't hesitate to jump on one if the price is right. I don't see why this cannot be possible with Spyderco retailers.