MAP pricing policy favors amazon. Bad for vendors (that are not Amazon) and consumers.

[RustyIron]

Wow. Talk about self-righteous indignation. Maybe some folks here need to spend less time worrying about how others spend their money.


The "brick and mortar" stores that I've visited have limited selections and are staffed by people who know far less about knives than I do. Higher prices, smaller selection, the profit goes to some guy who has nothing of value to offer me, and I have to actually go there. Why would I do that?

When I shop at Amazon, I'm supporting my UPS delivery man, I'm supporting the Amazon warehouse worker, , I'm supporting the truck drivers, aircraft mechanics, and the guy standing out on the tarmac giving hand signals to the pilots. I'm also supporting all the logistical experts who figure out how to get me good stuff as quickly and cost-effectively as possible. With Amazon, I don't have to leave my house, the prices are often better, and there is a 100% customer satisfaction guarantee with no questions asked. Why would I NOT do that?

I award my consumer dollars to those who provide the best product and the best service. To do otherwise would be the equivalent of handing out Participation Trophies. It breeds inefficiency, sloppiness, and laziness, and it saddles me with with the burden of inferior products and an unsatisfying shopping experience. No thanks.

[The Deacon]

One last point. Every reputable knife dealer, whether internet only, B&M only, or a mix of both, has a phone number, and darn near all of them have a toll free number. I wonder how many of those who complain about MAP pricing have ever tried calling one or more dealers and seeing if it would be possible to get a larger discount? The "A" in MAP stands for ADVERTISED and companies like Spyderco that insist their dealers adhere to MAP pricing have no control over prices directly negotiated between the buyer and seller. Not saying it will work every time. Not even saying it will ever work. But complaining about MAP without ever trying to get a better price is lazy.

[SG89]

I agree with most everything you said.

When MAP was first implemented, I also thought I remembered hearing that Spyderco would no longer use Amazon as a dealer. Though during the few years that MAP has been in place, Amazon has always been a Spyderco dealer with what appears to be an official Spyderco storefront.

Do you remember the thread about spyderco mentioning putting stickers/labels to close the boxes that were sold through Amazon? To deter/identify returns/mixups with fakes?

[Woodpuppy]

Wow. Talk about self-righteous indignation. Maybe some folks here need to spend less time worrying about how others spend their money.

You could have made your point quite nicely without this statement; all it accomplishes is stoking a confrontational mood to the discussion.

[Mushroom]

I agree with most everything you said.

When MAP was first implemented, I also thought I remembered hearing that Spyderco would no longer use Amazon as a dealer. Though during the few years that MAP has been in place, Amazon has always been a Spyderco dealer with what appears to be an official Spyderco storefront.

Do you remember the thread about spyderco mentioning putting stickers/labels to close the boxes that were sold through Amazon? To deter/identify returns/mixups with fakes?

It sounded familiar and you're right.

Quote from Sal in a thread "Does Spyderco use white sticker to seal outer package?" -

Hi Superstack,

Welcome to our forum.

Amazon requires that we seal both ends of the box, We have always used clear rectangle stickers on everything we ship to them.

sal

https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.ph ... r#p1150268

[spoonrobot]

Wow. Talk about self-righteous indignation. Maybe some folks here need to spend less time worrying about how others spend their money.


The "brick and mortar" stores that I've visited have limited selections and are staffed by people who know far less about knives than I do. Higher prices, smaller selection, the profit goes to some guy who has nothing of value to offer me, and I have to actually go there. Why would I do that?

When I shop at Amazon, I'm supporting my UPS delivery man, I'm supporting the Amazon warehouse worker, , I'm supporting the truck drivers, aircraft mechanics, and the guy standing out on the tarmac giving hand signals to the pilots. I'm also supporting all the logistical experts who figure out how to get me good stuff as quickly and cost-effectively as possible. With Amazon, I don't have to leave my house, the prices are often better, and there is a 100% customer satisfaction guarantee with no questions asked. Why would I NOT do that?

I award my consumer dollars to those who provide the best product and the best service. To do otherwise would be the equivalent of handing out Participation Trophies. It breeds inefficiency, sloppiness, and laziness, and it saddles me with with the burden of inferior products and an unsatisfying shopping experience. No thanks.

This is interesting. All those people are supported when you buy at other online retailers as well. Many would use those words to describe Amazon themselves, especially over the last two years. I stopped shopping at Amazon after working with them professionally in 2017. They are not a good company and I refuse to support them, especially for buying knives.

[JRinFL]

Well, I cannot virtue signal here as I have purchased a few knives from Amazon. This was before MAP and before I decided to reduce my reliance on Amazon. I generally spread my money around and have used many retailers and not all of them were/are strictly cutlery oriented sellers. My worst experiences have been with cutlery specific dealers, for what it’s worth.

MAP is always divisive, but just about every small manufacturer, in many markets, have been forced into instituting MAP. For them, the positives outweigh the negatives. For myself, I will always keep pressure on manufacturers to maintain reasonable prices, but at some point you have to pay the price the manufacturer needs to charge in order to keep it worth their while to make the product you want.

[KnotTheory]

For whatever this is worth, for me and my habits, the MAP does have the opposite effect (i.e. it drives me off of Amazon) to a point, it doesn't drive me to the very small retailers but it does drive me to the larger specialty retailers. If it's the same price everywhere I tend to buy from specialty retailers like Knifecenter, BladeHQ, New Graham, Knives Ship Free, White Mountain Knives, SMKW, etc.

Smaller retailers provide better support, sell specialized accessories I might want, offer free or reasonably priced shipping (in some cases I like their shipping options better than Amazon's), their sites are often specialized and make it a lot easier to shop and compare, have loyalty programs and/or coupons, some of them being smaller businesses come in under the threshold and don't charge state sales tax, and overall it's just a nicer experience.

I even had one Spyderco dealer call me once, I forget what I did exactly but I ordered two items that don't normally go together, and he called and asked if I meant to order the other, more logical, item, and yes indeed I did. Saved me the hassle of having to sort that out. You do not get that kind of service with Amazon, they do not know or care.

I buy plenty of stuff on Amazon, but if they don't have the best price, I don't feel especially inclined to buy from them.

[jtoler_9]

One last point. Every reputable knife dealer, whether internet only, B&M only, or a mix of both, has a phone number, and darn near all of them have a toll free number. I wonder how many of those who complain about MAP pricing have ever tried calling one or more dealers and seeing if it would be possible to get a larger discount? The "A" in MAP stands for ADVERTISED and companies like Spyderco that insist their dealers adhere to MAP pricing have no control over prices directly negotiated between the buyer and seller. Not saying it will work every time. Not even saying it will ever work. But complaining about MAP without ever trying to get a better price is lazy.

Well that took a turn. I think many of the folks you just called “lazy” probably spent several hours hitting refresh on seconds sale day just trying to checkout. Internet shopping has become a competitive sport these days. Maybe it’s not so much about “lazy” per say, but more about the object just isn’t worth the pain and expense anymore. Putting additional obstacles like “call your dealer and try to haggle!” in between internet shoppers and what they wish to purchase is an interesting strategy. I suppose the annual discontinued list would be the indication of how that’s going.

[The Deacon]

Well that took a turn. I think many of the folks you just called “lazy” probably spent several hours hitting refresh on seconds sale day just trying to checkout. Internet shopping has become a competitive sport these days. Maybe it’s not so much about “lazy” per say, but more about the object just isn’t worth the pain and expense anymore. Putting additional obstacles like “call your dealer and try to haggle!” in between internet shoppers and what they wish to purchase is an interesting strategy. I suppose the annual discontinued list would be the indication of how that’s going.

You may be right JT, my apologies to you and anyone else offended by my choice of words. FWIW, I was not totally happy with "lazy" myself. I spent a good 15 minutes trying to come up with a better word or phrase to describe someone who chooses to complain about a situation they have at least some chance to improve without even trying to improve it that didn't wind up sounding like some platitude from a 12 step program. Still, I didn't think it that insulting a term, as there are at least a few areas where I'll freely admit I'm lazy. Will just add that I'm somewhat surprised none of the online dealers have ever done "call for price" advertising to be more competitive.

As for your final observation, it looks to me like things are going pretty darn well for Spyderco. The 2021 discontinued list appears to be the shortest I can recall seeing, especially where knives are concerned.

[pantagana23]

One last point. Every reputable knife dealer, whether internet only, B&M only, or a mix of both, has a phone number, and darn near all of them have a toll free number. I wonder how many of those who complain about MAP pricing have ever tried calling one or more dealers and seeing if it would be possible to get a larger discount? The "A" in MAP stands for ADVERTISED and companies like Spyderco that insist their dealers adhere to MAP pricing have no control over prices directly negotiated between the buyer and seller. Not saying it will work every time. Not even saying it will ever work. But complaining about MAP without ever trying to get a better price is lazy.

Hold on, this really works?
Never did this, because I supposed that the seller has no reason to reduce the price for me if they would sell the knife to the next person for the price advertised.

I suppose this could work for models not sought after.

[jdw]

We can jump up and down and scream to the air and it will not make one bit of difference. It's easy to notice that a lot of folks, myself included, are aging Spyderco fans. They will continue to sell knives. They offer a quality product and they will continue to be a successful company, but the base loyalty of buying a knife because they offer it is gone.

[Sumdumguy]

Wow. Talk about self-righteous indignation. Maybe some folks here need to spend less time worrying about how others spend their money.


The "brick and mortar" stores that I've visited have limited selections and are staffed by people who know far less about knives than I do. Higher prices, smaller selection, the profit goes to some guy who has nothing of value to offer me, and I have to actually go there. Why would I do that?

When I shop at Amazon, I'm supporting my UPS delivery man, I'm supporting the Amazon warehouse worker, , I'm supporting the truck drivers, aircraft mechanics, and the guy standing out on the tarmac giving hand signals to the pilots. I'm also supporting all the logistical experts who figure out how to get me good stuff as quickly and cost-effectively as possible. With Amazon, I don't have to leave my house, the prices are often better, and there is a 100% customer satisfaction guarantee with no questions asked. Why would I NOT do that?

I award my consumer dollars to those who provide the best product and the best service. To do otherwise would be the equivalent of handing out Participation Trophies. It breeds inefficiency, sloppiness, and laziness, and it saddles me with with the burden of inferior products and an unsatisfying shopping experience. No thanks.

You support the workers, so you buy from Amazon?

Amazon is spending billions of dollars to automate as much of their business as possible. The sole purpose of this being decreasing operating costs, by eliminating workers drawing a payroll check, delivery service contracts, etc.

I'm not saying you're bad, just that this topic goes MUCH deeper than what you've laid out. The main part is that Amazon is not operating with the benefit of their blue collar work force in mind. Rather, they are actively working towards shrinking it as much as possible, while still functioning.

Some argue, "That's just business.". That's true, but it shouldn't be. Compassion has it's place. Sometimes people need to be put ahead of achieving maximum profits. That belief is probably why I'm not a "rich" businessman.

Also, I agree on the participation trophy bull hockey. I also love efficiency. However, efficiency should not be achieved at the cost of human livelihoods.

(I do shop on Amazon for things I can't find locally. No knives, though.)

[jpm2]

Amazon and their employees don't need me, and I don't need them. I haven't bought anything from them in years. They don't have anything I know of that I can't get somewhere else at reasonable cost.
Not that I do, but if I spend an extra hundred a year by not using them, that's ok. I understand most people don't feel that way.

[Sharp Guy]

Hey look! Another heated debate about Amazon & MAP. I read a few posts and it's the same ol' same ol'.

I have better things to do. See you all later....

[jdw]

Self righteousness is a good way to stop a thread. I like most of what you say.

[TomAiello]

In terms of buying from Amazon in general, I have to agree with Rusty.

Plus, since anyone can use Amazon as a seller, it really democratizes e-commerce. It makes it very easy for a mom and pop store to branch out onto Amazon, and leverage some of the world's best fulfillment and marketing systems.

In terms of knives (and other items that are prone to counterfeiting) I'm definitely avoiding Amazon though. Even eBay (not my first option) is much better, because of the ability to identify the sellers.

[JohnDoe99]

One last point. Every reputable knife dealer, whether internet only, B&M only, or a mix of both, has a phone number, and darn near all of them have a toll free number. I wonder how many of those who complain about MAP pricing have ever tried calling one or more dealers and seeing if it would be possible to get a larger discount? The "A" in MAP stands for ADVERTISED and companies like Spyderco that insist their dealers adhere to MAP pricing have no control over prices directly negotiated between the buyer and seller. Not saying it will work every time. Not even saying it will ever work. But complaining about MAP without ever trying to get a better price is lazy.

Ever heard of a euphemism? Thats what "MAP" is. It is legally plausible deniability. No one in our litigious society is going to call a spade a spade. So, instead of price control, it is "MAP."

[Danke]

So it looks like the thread title has been edited? Can we get a 1-2 sentance recap of why Minimum Advertised Price is bad?

[D-Wade]

I don’t buy knives from Amazon, I buy from dealers or individuals on Bladeforums. Since MAP pricing is the same across the board I do spread my purchases out among the online dealers to help support them all. But for everything else I buy I do price shop between Amazon and other brick and mortar stores as well as online retailers.