The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

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dj moonbat
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#21

Post by dj moonbat »

I have been using the RockJumper SE for a month or two, and I definitely haven’t had any problems from carrying a knife so biased toward pull cuts.
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VooDooChild
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#22

Post by VooDooChild »

On the one hand thats pretty cool. Congrats on all the work you put into it.

On the other hand have you used an endura 4 wharncliffe? Its a big wharncliffe folder with a negative blade angle. The blade angle isnt quite as negative as your design, but it is more negative than it looks, especially if the handle is actually being held horizontally to the ground, box, or whatever.

Also the upcoming swick 5 seems to have a very negative blade angle as well.

For me, I think I could do anything with an endura 4 wharncliffe that I could do with this knife design.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#23

Post by JRinFL »

Ez556 wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:21 am
JRinFL wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 8:18 am
Obviously, the other makers will not be able to use the round opening hole.
Nor the Compression Lock.
Correct, I missed that part. :o
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Evil D
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#24

Post by Evil D »

It's essentially a more versatile, easier to sharpen hawkbill. It won't pull cut quite as aggressively since material could potentially slip off the blade (vs a hawkbill I mean) but it has a more usable tip than a hawkbill. The vast majority of cuts I make are in mid air as opposed to cutting board style cuts made against a flat surface, so this kind of knife would only be limited for me in a select few situations. Blade angle is one of those things that shifts the usability towards one end of the spectrum and like a hawkbill it can make a knife function far better in some tasks and far less in others.

Then there's the Ayoob, which takes all that logic and tosses it out the window and gives you a crazy negative blade angle but with tons of belly so you can still use it on a cutting board.

For the record there are already fixed blades with this configuration, KA-BAR make a few.
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brancron
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#25

Post by brancron »

I have something along these lines (not a dramatic negative angle, but there nonetheless) that was built for me by the great Walter Wells (second from the left):

Image

The blade is .044" thick, full flat ground M2 steel at around 64 Rc. Here's a quick video: https://vimeo.com/312123079

It may very well be the ultimate slicer! I agree that we need more of such designs.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#26

Post by Lumpy »

Hey carpediem, I just want to say I think this is a great design. I’ve been looking for something like this for awhile, all the points you made are spot on. Most of my cuts are pull cuts as well and the sort of straight edged hawkbill concept is perfect. Maybe spyderco can implement something similar to this in the future, I know this design would jump right to the front of my list. Good work!
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#27

Post by Skidoosh »

Ed Schempp designs often incorporate the same angle for this exact reason but not as a wharncliffe. Sal's designs such as the Caly 3 and 3.5 also have this kind of design. I could easily see it in the line up.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#28

Post by Cl1ff »

I like the concept!
So much so that i have spent a bit of time drawing similar designs.

I adore this name idea!
Pterosaurs’ close relation to Dinosaurs is fascinating and reminds me of what Sal mentioned about the inspiration behind the Byrd knives name (being somewhat of an homage to Birds prehistoric origins among dinosaurs).

For some fun context, the artwork shared likely depicts the animal Pteranodon. It is a prehistoric Pterosaur in the taxonomic suborder “Pterodactyloidea.”
The other genus of Pterosaur by the name Pterodactylus is where the term commonly used by media, “Pteradactyl”, originates.

Pteradactyl is sort of like using “Raptor” for modern birds of prey. It doesn’t apply to every Pterosaur just as Raptor doesn’t apply to every bird.

I only mention the above because I study paleontology and am an admittedly stuck up stickler for proper terminology lol ;)
Hopefully, I explained it in a way that is understandable and doesn’t sound too much like I’m being a smart *** :o
To me, taxonomy is just cool and neat to talk about! :D

Anyways, I’ve severely deviated from the subject, but do also hope to see more negative blade angles! It is one of the first things I look for alongside recurves and straight edges.

Aside from that, I have always been very curious about the process of submitting a design to Spyderco.
What would be the best way to go about it?
What was your experience like? Is there a good way to judge if the design you submit will have a good chance? Etc.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#29

Post by soulspy »

Get a Rock Jumper. You'll like it.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#30

Post by carpdiem »

Whoa, this blew up overnight more than I expected! Glad you all are enjoying the design and ideas! I'll try to respond to a few common thoughts here:


"Pterodactyl" -


hahah, yes! The resemblance had hit me, too! I wonder what the evolutionary advantage was for those creatures developing a "negative head angle"!


"Ed Schempp's designs..." -


that hadn't occurred to me, but it's absolutely right! Too bad they're not available anymore.


"rockjumper / endura wharncliffe /etc" -


I always end up with a dilemma with knives like these. I've got relatively big hands, so I really appreciate large handles (and choils! Gotta love choils!), so I think my smallest knives are a shaman and a PM2, but exactly that property (large handle) means that tilting the blade down to get access to the tip/etc means you have a lot of handle to maneuver, so it's difficult to do without also cranking your wrist over. Do y'all not find this the case with the rockjumper/etc? Can you, for example, comfortably use them while sitting at a table, to cut something along the surface?


"submitting the design somewhere else..." -


to be honest, I think it would take a lot of time to redo the relevant design aspects (opening hole and lock placement) to make it suitable for another company. It took like three full prototype 3d print runs and who knows how long of fiddling with the design to achieve the three-fold goal of:

1) no awkward corners when the knife is closed,

2) enough clearance around the opening hole throughout its motion to be able to use gloves without catching your finger on the choil, and

3) maintaining perpendicular contact on all lock surfaces for maximum strength.

And honestly, I'm just not sure my heart would be in it. After all, I'm here on this forum, and not anyplace else, for a reason.


"experience submitting the design" -


It was very smooth, though not always transparent. The way it works is you contact Peter Jhones who sends you a disclosure form. Then you just fill that out and mail it in with your design materials. Then you wait, and if they don't like it, they'll ship everything back with a very kind note once they've made up their mind. No idea what the last steps are if they *do* like it, lol.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#31

Post by Abyss_Fish »

This is absolutely the way to go. My two favorite blade features are flat edges and negative angles, so this checks out. I'd love to see something like this come to fruition in one form or another.
Lightly insane.

Current spydie collection: Watu, Rhino, UKPK Salt G10 bladeswap, Yojimbo 2 Smooth G10 Cru-Wear, Manix lw “mystic” 20cv, SmallFly 2, Waterway, Ladybug k390, Caribbean
Current favorite steels: sg2/R2, lc200n/Z-FiNit, 3v
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#32

Post by PeaceInOurTime »

I like it! :) One vote from me.

This year, I've primarily used a Byrd Hawkbill, Ladybug Hawkbill, and an Endura Wharncliffe. I've been spoiled by negative blade angle and find it a hassle to go back to a more neutral angle with lots of belly, unless I'm cutting on a flat surface which rarely happens.

Based on apparent performance, your design should be successful, but I don't think the majority of knife buyers understand the benefits of this type of design. Maybe submit it to Spyderco again in a few years? More people are "seeing the light" of wharncliffes and negative blade angles, it may get approved in the future.

Also, that choil is perfect. Very minimal, yet still useful.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#33

Post by Bolster »

RustyIron wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 7:28 am
carpdiem wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:11 am
I'm a physicist and an engineer, and I wish I had a knife optimized for precision and benchwork.

I'm a blue collar college dropout ... I see the weakness of such a knife as the way it forces the user to use only the tip of the blade, and the way it makes using the rest of the blade awkward. For everyday knife use, I prefer to reserve the tip of the knife for those times when it's really needed, and try to use the mid section when possible... A big fat pocket folder really isn't a tool for precision benchwork, no matter how you orient the blade.

I'm not a college dropout or a physicist-engineer, but my first impression was in line with Rusty's. I'd prefer an interchangeable blade utility knife for the purposes mentioned. But it's a cool presentation and an interesting idea...however it's not for me.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#34

Post by Baron Mind »

I like it. Good job.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#35

Post by Sharp Guy »

I like a little negative blade angle but not that much. The Sliverax is about perfect IMO
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#36

Post by Cl1ff »


"Pterodactyl" -


hahah, yes! The resemblance had hit me, too! I wonder what the evolutionary advantage was for those creatures developing a "negative head angle"!

That’s a great question and I’m glad that I can provide an answer to it! :D
Paleontologists can create 3D models of the brain inferred from the bones forming what is called the “braincase” (scientifically known as an endocast).
The orientation of specific parts of the brain like the inner ear can help determine what position an animal’s head was held at in life.

This isn’t fool proof, but when combined with other morphological adaptations and what we can conclude about their lifestyles, our knowledge of Pterosaurs’ lives is much more extensive than one might expect. :cool:

As a general idea for some pterosaurs, like the Pteranodon in that image, the “negative head angle” would be useful when surveying the water for something like food. It keeps the head closer to the water and beak out of the eyes’ way to allow a better field of view.
There are other interesting characteristics of the skull like sexually dimorphic crests and a longer upper jaw than the lower one, but those are less relevant.

For others, like a group known as Azhdarchids which were the largest flying animals ever, the negative head angle meant they didn’t need to flex necks or arms so much to reach the ground with the large and heavy beaks on their face. Similar to modern birds like Storks!
This also parallels your desire to reduce wrist flexion while using the tip of a knife. ;)

Here are two scientific papers that describe in much better detail what I’m saying and more.
These should answer most of your question...

Pterosaur Brains:
http://digimorph.org/specimens/Rhamphor ... _02048.pdf

Azhdarchid Pterosaur head angle:
(Toward the end of the discussion part)
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0002271


"experience submitting the design" -


It was very smooth, though not always transparent. The way it works is you contact Peter Jhones who sends you a disclosure form. Then you just fill that out and mail it in with your design materials. Then you wait, and if they don't like it, they'll ship everything back with a very kind note once they've made up their mind. No idea what the last steps are if they *do* like it, lol.
[/quote]

Thank you for answering my query regarding the submission process! I really appreciate that! :)
I do have another question, though.
Did you send the physical prototypes in as well?
I figure that would be the case, but I’m not sure.
rex121 is the king of steel, but nature’s teeth have been cutting for hundreds of millions of years and counting :cool:
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#37

Post by Menipo »

A really interesting design but not for me.

When I have to repeatedly make pull cuts, or cut materials along a surface, I always use a Stanley knife. Cheap, efficient and always sharp (one just has to change a penny blade). For me it is much more efficient than a 150-200? dollar knife that, if it receives intensive use, one has to sharpen every little bit. But it is just me.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#38

Post by Bolster »

Negative blade angle, but no spydie hole, no comp lock, and no S110V...
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#39

Post by foofie »

Bolster wrote:
Fri Dec 18, 2020 3:34 pm
Negative blade angle, but no spydie hole, no comp lock, and no S110V...
This is actually the box cutter I use, for all the reasons behind this design. I use bi-metal blades just to make it look kinda blurple :cool:

I agree with the utility, I like the execution, and I would definitely buy one. Very nicely thought out.
My one concern - the blade is not very covered in the handle. After a few vigorous sharpening sessions, there might be an unpleasant pointy surprise.
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Re: The negative blade angle wharncliffe that I wish existed

#40

Post by bbturbodad »

I like it...would probably kick the Lil Matriarch out of my pocket.
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