VG-10 vs LC200N

[Deadboxhero]

Yeah Buddy :cool:

A fixed blade in LC200N at 61rc and thin? You need to stop talking dirty to me. I would carry that blade every day all day and sleep with it at night.

When LC200N made it's first splash there was a race to find a way to get it to higher harderness.

Since the microstructure is so fine it would make a great candidate for higher harderness to push the stability.
Get thinner geometry that is less prone to rolling, deburr better and be able to hold a crisper edge better.

Currently everything in the market is 57-59rc Max.
Hardest one I ever saw was from Chad Kelly Customs a little over 60rc but just under 61rc which is very impressive.

As I learned from Larrin it is the nature of what makes the steel so stainless that is the culprit for the hard limit in hardness.

LC200Ns special move is to put an ungodly amount of chromium in solution which makes possibly one of the most intense chromium oxide films to resist rust seen in a martensitic stainless steel.

The crux is that it also puts a lid on the hardness capability, all that chromium in solution interferes with the ability to make harder.

Last year I ran lots of heat treatment coupons essentially feeling against the wall for a pathway opening to the +60rc.

I was able to get 61.5rc after the first temper which came down to 61rc.

I was very proud of this even though it's not the crazy high HRC stuff I do with other steels but given the limits of the LC200N chemistry I was stoked.

I always wanted to play with a nitrogen laser and thought the steel was neat and desired more strength for thinner geometries.

[Doc Dan]

Easy, it just goes to show that how something is sharpened is the biggest factor for performance along with folks using knives differently and having different ways of judging the sharpeness of the edge.

The end user is the biggest variable.

Absolutely. Many testers have shown that the edge angle and the thickness behind the edge are the two biggest factors, not the steel. Here is a good example from J Davis: https://youtu.be/peO0akV ... e=emb_logo

[sal]

Apples and oranges. LC's real advantage is in its ability to resist corrosion. We wouldn't use VG-10 in Golden, we would use SPY27.

sal

[Deadboxhero]

Apples and oranges. LC's real advantage is in its ability to resist corrosion. We wouldn't use VG-10 in Golden, we would use SPY27.

sal

That's fine with me, I've been loving the para 3lw in spy27 I bought back in spring.

Takes a nice polished edge which is lovely


I've been lately running a toothy edge, 400 grit.

[skeeg11]

Apples and oranges. LC's real advantage is in its ability to resist corrosion. We wouldn't use VG-10 in Golden, we would use SPY27.

sal

We respect your loyalty to your Japanese makers and wouldn't expect you to use VG-10 in Golden. Your core values are one of the many reasons we buy Spyderco. Still, I can't help wonder why an American made fixed with an affordable steel like LC200N is only represented in the lineup by the WaterWay and the proposed upcoming Swick. Granted SPY27 will be a better overall choice for an outdoor fixed albeit more expensive. Perhaps the SPY27 ball is not quite up and running yet as planned. Only you know for sure. While I have no figures to make my case, I can't help but feel that an easily sharpened highly corrosion resistant affordable Golden made fixed filet in LC200N is an itch that many Americans want to scratch. I know that the Catcherman may not be one of your favorite memories but sad as it may be, there are a lot more fishermen than before Covid 19 who aren't catch and release guys. A fixed filet is a different animal than the Catcherman. It's a serious tool and not a just in case tool carried around looking for an application.

[Mike Slayer]

Still, I can't help wonder why an American made fixed with an affordable steel like LC200N is only represented in the lineup by the WaterWay and the proposed upcoming Swick.

Where did you find affordable LC200N for sale? Last time I checked it's five times the price of AEB-L. I love LC200N but it's not a cheap steel alloy.

[Sumdumguy]

Still, I can't help wonder why an American made fixed with an affordable steel like LC200N is only represented in the lineup by the WaterWay and the proposed upcoming Swick.

Where did you find affordable LC200N for sale? Last time I checked it's five times the price of AEB-L. I love LC200N but it's not a cheap steel alloy.

I consider it a "budget" high end steel.

It is quite a bit cheaper than S30V(~20%)
Works for me.

But, I'm a moron. Don't listen to me. :D

[skeeg11]

I consider it a "budget" high end steel.

It is quite a bit cheaper than S30V(~20%)
Works for me.


[/quote]

Sounds about right.

[NarwhalisnotKosher]

I think it's our duty as steel junkies to drag the rest of the knife economy kicking and screaming in to the future.

:cool:

I agree, that's why I want a Vanax Chef and PM2

[Naperville]

I think it's our duty as steel junkies to drag the rest of the knife economy kicking and screaming in to the future.

:cool:

I agree, that's why I want a Vanax Chef and PM2

After seeing Larrin's most recent write-up on Vanadis 8, I'd rather have that, but I hear you.

[NarwhalisnotKosher]

I think it's our duty as steel junkies to drag the rest of the knife economy kicking and screaming in to the future.

:cool:

I agree, that's why I want a Vanax Chef and PM2

After seeing Larrin's most recent write-up on Vanadis 8, I'd rather have that, but I hear you.

I want a PM2 in Vanadis 8 too.

I was hoping a 10v or K390 PM2 would drop during the seconds sale but now I've moved on

[Wartstein]

Reading the infos in this thread, I have a feeling that I personally won´t be able to feel any significant difference between VG10 and LC200N in real use (since VG10 does not rust on me anyway, and in most aspects, considering that Spyderco seems to run their VG10 a bit lower in hardness than the one in Larrins chart, they seem to be pretty close - at least for an average guy like me who does not know a whole lot about steels or sharpening)

[GarageBoy]

Apples and oranges. LC's real advantage is in its ability to resist corrosion. We wouldn't use VG-10 in Golden, we would use SPY27.

sal

That's fine with me, I've been loving the para 3lw in spy27 I bought back in spring.

Takes a nice polished edge which is lovely


I've been lately running a toothy edge, 400 grit.

Can't wait to see that Spy27/CPMS45VN/VG10/S30V video!

I couldn't get my hands on a SPY27 second, but I do have a UKPK coming in - BD1N should give me a taste of fine grain, hard-ish matrix life, right?

[Surfingringo]

I think that one of the biggest determining factor (that is often overlooked) is what are you cutting? I have had LC200N edges that seemed to outperform VG10 and weeks later the same knife would seem to fall short vs its vg10 counterpart. I feel like LC200N performs on par with vg10 on lots of materials but when you start pushing it on harder material it can be slightly more prone to plastic deformation than vg10. In other words I feel like vg10 has an advantage in strength. The thing is though, that only comes into play if you push LC200N past a certain threshold. Up until that point it compares quite favorably to vg10. I believe that is one of the reasons you might see varying opinions on performance with one guy saying his LC200N outperformed his vg10 and another guy reporting the opposite. They can both be right.

It should be noted that this type of edge deformation or “flattening or rolling” is one of the main reasons that H1 underperforms in PE. Though vg10 and s30v might have a slight strength advantage over LC200N, LC200N is still WAY ahead of H1 in that area. At the end of the day, I find LC200N and vg10 to be almost indistinguishable in edge retention for the cutting I do so the huge increase in corrosion resistance makes LC200N a much more suitable steel for me.

[Kale]

I've been wondering how VG-10 compares to what we typically use in the kitchen (utensils, pots and pans, etc.), at least in terms of corrosion resistance? (I realize that VG-10 has far superior edge retention.) I ask because this is my only real point of comparison, when looking at stainless steel corrosion resistance. In my experience, I rarely see anything in the kitchen spot or rust, even when soaking overnight, etc. So if I'm getting similar corrosion resistance from VG-10, then the added corrosion resistance of H1 or LC200N is not really needed (at least by me).

[James Y]

I've been wondering how VG-10 compares to what we typically use in the kitchen (utensils, pots and pans, etc.), at least in terms of corrosion resistance? (I realize that VG-10 has far superior edge retention.) I ask because this is my only real point of comparison, when looking at stainless steel corrosion resistance. In my experience, I rarely see anything in the kitchen spot or rust, even when soaking overnight, etc. So if I'm getting similar corrosion resistance from VG-10, then the added corrosion resistance of H1 or LC200N is not really needed (at least by me).

Although VG-10 has above-average corrosion resistance for a quality knife steel, in my experience, it is not as corrosion-resistant as most kitchen ware. VG-10 can develop rust spots if you leave it sitting around wet, or don’t rinse it off after cutting acidic foods. The only kitchen ware I’ve seen develop rust from sitting around were some cheap China-made kitchen ware. My kitchen ware made in Japan and Korea have never rusted just sitting around wet.

VG-10 contains much more carbon in it than typical kitchen ware (forks, spoons, dinner knives, pans, etc.).

Jim

[Kale]

I've been wondering how VG-10 compares to what we typically use in the kitchen (utensils, pots and pans, etc.), at least in terms of corrosion resistance? (I realize that VG-10 has far superior edge retention.) I ask because this is my only real point of comparison, when looking at stainless steel corrosion resistance. In my experience, I rarely see anything in the kitchen spot or rust, even when soaking overnight, etc. So if I'm getting similar corrosion resistance from VG-10, then the added corrosion resistance of H1 or LC200N is not really needed (at least by me).

Although VG-10 has above-average corrosion resistance for a quality knife steel, in my experience, it is not as corrosion-resistant as most kitchen ware. VG-10 can develop rust spots if you leave it sitting around wet, or don’t rinse it off after cutting acidic foods. The only kitchen ware I’ve seen develop rust from sitting around were some cheap China-made kitchen ware. My kitchen ware made in Japan and Korea have never rusted just sitting around wet.

VG-10 contains much more carbon in it than typical kitchen ware (forks, spoons, dinner knives, pans, etc.).

Jim

Thanks, that's helpful. I can see why the higher carbon content would make a big difference.