Question about A2?

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jdw
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Question about A2?

#1

Post by jdw »

A couple of times recently I have read A2 brought up as a suggestion for both a Military and a fixed blade. It left me wondering what the advantages of using this steel would be? There seems to be similar and superior steels out there but I wonder what I'm missing? Thanks folks.
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Re: Question about A2?

#2

Post by The Mastiff »

I like A2. It is superior to 1095 in all three attributes. On the other hand 3v has it beat with all three, wear resistance, corrosion resistance and toughness. Overall it's a fairly tough air hardening 1% steel alloy. It is very easy to sharpen and if you are a knifemaker it's easy to work with. It's niche is going to be bushcraft and woods and camping knives. In 40 some years I've only seen it used in one very small slip joint folder. Would it make a good folding knife? I think so. The argument people use against 3V as a folding knife steel makes even more sense on A2 but seeing as I like 1095, O1, 52100 and even 5160 in folders A2 makes more sense for folders and outperforms all of these except maybe 52100 and A2 should have it beat in toughness. 5160 would be tougher but it is less wear resistant and probably less corrosion resistant.
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Re: Question about A2?

#3

Post by steelcity16 »

I would honestly buy a Miliie in A2, O1, 52100 (c'mon Grey/DLC KW exclusive!), etc. But as Mastiff said, 3V, and especially the Delta 3V heat treat that Nathan Carothers uses on his fixed blades (and soon to be a folder it seems) would be preferred to the others. I'd also like to see a Millie in AEB-L and CPM-154. I desperately want a Nathan Carothers collabed Military using his Delta 3V!
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Re: Question about A2?

#4

Post by Michael Janich »

Masters of Defense used to use A2 on Duane Dieter's fixed blades, which included blade catchers (that Duane wouldn't acknowledge as blade catchers). It was very tough and worked well on fixed blades. The edge geometry on those knives was terrible, so I'm not sure about edge retention and sharpening.

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Re: Question about A2?

#5

Post by vivi »

I love A2. It's nearly as cheap as 1095, holds an edge twice as long, resists corrosion much better, is very tough and takes a great edge easily. Its sort of like a carbon steel VG10 in that its very well balanced and does nothing poorly.

I've been suggesting it lately in discussions about inexpensive fixed blades because I have a lot of A2 FB's in the $50-90 range that show superb performance.

I've yet to use a steel that shows equal performance for the price.
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Re: Question about A2?

#6

Post by kobold »

I would buy a 14C28N Millie.
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Re: Question about A2?

#7

Post by JuPaul »

Bark River uses it for quite a few of their "base model" fixed blades. I haven't used it myself, but it certainly seems to have withstood the test of time at that reputable fixed blade company. Would I prefer 3v or cruwear? Sure. But at a lower price point I definitely wouldn't turn my nose up at a Spydie fixed blade in A2.
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Re: Question about A2?

#8

Post by vivi »

JuPaul wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 7:06 pm
Bark River uses it for quite a few of their "base model" fixed blades. I haven't used it myself, but it certainly seems to have withstood the test of time at that reputable fixed blade company. Would I prefer 3v or cruwear? Sure. But at a lower price point I definitely wouldn't turn my nose up at a Spydie fixed blade in A2.
I seem to be the odd man out when it comes to Cruwear, but I found A2 at60-61rc to perform better than the Cruwear Military I borrowed for a couple months.

3V is a step up for sure though.
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Re: Question about A2?

#9

Post by benben »

So which is tougher for a good camp fixed blade, A2 or O1?
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Re: Question about A2?

#10

Post by vivi »

benben wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:53 pm
So which is tougher for a good camp fixed blade, A2 or O1?
https://www.astmsteel.com/steel-knowled ... -o1-steel/

A2 has more chrome which contributes to greater edge retention & corrosion resistance vs O1.

O1 will rust as fast as anything I've tried, but takes an exceptional edge with ease. The sharpening response is second to none.

Haven't had durability issues with either. I've only used them in 6" or less blades, however.
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Re: Question about A2?

#11

Post by benben »

vivi wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:56 pm
benben wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:53 pm
So which is tougher for a good camp fixed blade, A2 or O1?
https://www.astmsteel.com/steel-knowled ... -o1-steel/

A2 has more chrome which contributes to greater edge retention & corrosion resistance vs O1.

O1 will rust as fast as anything I've tried, but takes an exceptional edge with ease. The sharpening response is second to none.

Haven't had durability issues with either. I've only used them in 6" or less blades, however.
Thanks vivi!
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Re: Question about A2?

#12

Post by standy99 »

Have a Camp Muk in A2 that is a great small camp knife that can handle batoning and then it’s cutting up food for dinner.
Great steel for a ferro rod.

Probably the one steel I could take camping for a week and wouldn’t have a issue or worry too much if I left my sharpening gear at home.

Would like to try it folder thin as most times I have used it it’s usually thick blade stock type fixed blades.
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Re: Question about A2?

#13

Post by The Mastiff »

I seem to be the odd man out when it comes to Cruwear, but I found A2 at60-61rc to perform better than the Cruwear Military I borrowed for a couple months.

3V is a step up for sure though.
Hello Vivi. In what way did it outperform Cruwear? This has me curious as Cruwear has better wear resistance than 3V which as you say is a step up. Was it chipping at the edge or something?

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Re: Question about A2?

#14

Post by vivi »

I didn't experience very good edge retention with Cruwear, which is why I haven't bought any Cruwear models myself over the years. I'm wondering if that one was a lemon because it seems like everyone else has had a more positive experience with the steel.
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Re: Question about A2?

#15

Post by Deadboxhero »

vivi wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 12:03 pm
I didn't experience very good edge retention with Cruwear, which is why I haven't bought any Cruwear models myself over the years. I'm wondering if that one was a lemon because it seems like everyone else has had a more positive experience with the steel.
Give Cruwear another chance, you'd be surprised.
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Re: Question about A2?

#16

Post by Deadboxhero »

Not much advantage for performance.

Only advantage is novelty

A2 is outclassed by the steels we have available today.

CPM Cruwear, PD-1, Z-Wear
Are tougher, cut longer, sharpens excellently and are less reactive.

CPM 3v
Also tougher, cuts longer, less reactive also sharpens well.

Z-tuff, CD-1

Some of the toughest and still cuts longer than A2.

A2 has a rather coarse microstructure with chunky
undissolved chromiumm carbides, that's why it's also still a more reactive, the Chromium is mostly locked up in Carbides and not free in solution to help build a oxide layer to prevent rust.

So from a performance stand point A2 is not as good.

From a novelty stand point the more the merrier but there are other more interesting steels that are more worthwhile.



jdw wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 am
A couple of times recently I have read A2 brought up as a suggestion for both a Military and a fixed blade. It left me wondering what the advantages of using this steel would be? There seems to be similar and superior steels out there but I wonder what I'm missing? Thanks folks.
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Re: Question about A2?

#17

Post by GarageBoy »

I'd put up with a2 if I could get a CRK one piece knife, again
vivi
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Re: Question about A2?

#18

Post by vivi »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:18 pm
Not much advantage for performance.

Only advantage is novelty

A2 is outclassed by the steels we have available today.

CPM Cruwear, PD-1, Z-Wear
Are tougher, cut longer, sharpens excellently and are less reactive.

CPM 3v
Also tougher, cuts longer, less reactive also sharpens well.

Z-tuff, CD-1

Some of the toughest and still cuts longer than A2.

A2 has a rather coarse microstructure with chunky
undissolved chromiumm carbides, that's why it's also still a more reactive, the Chromium is mostly locked up in Carbides and not free in solution to help build a oxide layer to prevent rust.

So from a performance stand point A2 is not as good.

From a novelty stand point the more the merrier but there are other more interesting steels that are more worthwhile.



jdw wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 am
A couple of times recently I have read A2 brought up as a suggestion for both a Military and a fixed blade. It left me wondering what the advantages of using this steel would be? There seems to be similar and superior steels out there but I wonder what I'm missing? Thanks folks.
I'll be trying cruwear again someday.

I don't think A2 is the best steel out there, but it gives good performance for the $$. It's about the same price as 1095 from my sources at least, but performs much better.

Like I said I view it kind of like a non-stainless VG10. I have steels that are tougher, more corrosion resistant or hold an edge better than VG10 or A2, but at the end of the day I know either steel will perform well enough in every aspect and won't break the bank.

If I were going for top of the line performance neither would be my first choice, but I view each steel as a step up from the 440X / 1095 budget steels still commonly used.

My advocacy for A2 stems from my desire to see Spyderco offer more small budget fixed blades. Knives like the ESEE Izula 2, LT Wright Frontier Valley, Bark River Highlander etc. The first 2 can be had under $100.....hard to hit that price point with 3V, Cruwear, etc.

The Bushcraft knife I'm reprofiling right now is A2 / micarta / kydex, hand made in USA, for under $80. That's where A2 shines, as an upgrade over 1095 that can still hit similar price ranges. I paid about the same for my Izula (1095), Frontier Valley (O1) and Landi PSK (A2), and the A2 knife has worked best for me. The most corrosion resistant of the three, and the best edge holding.
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Re: Question about A2?

#19

Post by Deadboxhero »

When I was a knife reviewer back in the day

I tried a bark river out in A2 (upper left)

Great knife

Image

The A2 reminded me of 1095, it cut with ease on the Naniwa chosera stones I loved at the time but it didn't really stand out to me, I did a zero convex grind on the stones but the blade wasn't hard enough to push that geometry so I had to thicken it a little.

What I don't really like is that the A2 has kinda of a chunky microstructure. Which theoretically means the stability is lower.



Currently from a maker point of view I'd rather use, sell or buy knives in AEB-L if I'm confined on price.

The raw steel is cheaper, tougher, has more stability, and cuts longer not to mention is actually stainless.

I had some rusting on my A2 blade in the leather sheath on a rainy overnighter, the chromium is mostly locked up with carbides much like D2 is, so the rust was to be expected.

When Larrin released this article
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/04/22/ ... roperties/
It piqued my interest and I was curious after a conversation with Larrin if pre-quenching or homogenizing the steel would result in finer chromium carbides.

I just wanted a finer, less clumpy A2 at higher hardness so I could get that zero convex grind I always wanted. :D

It seemed too expensive to refine and the outcome not worth and may not be possible to achieve.
Marginal return on investment.

So my attention span wandered to other available steels that don't need the effort to achieve the desired performance in that range such as AEB-L and Nitro V


I think folks will enjoy whatever they decide if it's on the table.

After all, steel type is only one small component for an excellent fixed blade.

Just sharing my thoughts.
vivi wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:21 pm
Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:18 pm
Not much advantage for performance.

Only advantage is novelty

A2 is outclassed by the steels we have available today.

CPM Cruwear, PD-1, Z-Wear
Are tougher, cut longer, sharpens excellently and are less reactive.

CPM 3v
Also tougher, cuts longer, less reactive also sharpens well.

Z-tuff, CD-1

Some of the toughest and still cuts longer than A2.

A2 has a rather coarse microstructure with chunky
undissolved chromiumm carbides, that's why it's also still a more reactive, the Chromium is mostly locked up in Carbides and not free in solution to help build a oxide layer to prevent rust.

So from a performance stand point A2 is not as good.

From a novelty stand point the more the merrier but there are other more interesting steels that are more worthwhile.



jdw wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 am
A couple of times recently I have read A2 brought up as a suggestion for both a Military and a fixed blade. It left me wondering what the advantages of using this steel would be? There seems to be similar and superior steels out there but I wonder what I'm missing? Thanks folks.
I'll be trying cruwear again someday.

I don't think A2 is the best steel out there, but it gives good performance for the $$. It's about the same price as 1095 from my sources at least, but performs much better.

Like I said I view it kind of like a non-stainless VG10. I have steels that are tougher, more corrosion resistant or hold an edge better than VG10 or A2, but at the end of the day I know either steel will perform well enough in every aspect and won't break the bank.

If I were going for top of the line performance neither would be my first choice, but I view each steel as a step up from the 440X / 1095 budget steels still commonly used.

My advocacy for A2 stems from my desire to see Spyderco offer more small budget fixed blades. Knives like the ESEE Izula 2, LT Wright Frontier Valley, Bark River Highlander etc. The first 2 can be had under $100.....hard to hit that price point with 3V, Cruwear, etc.

The Bushcraft knife I'm reprofiling right now is A2 / micarta / kydex, hand made in USA, for under $80. That's where A2 shines, as an upgrade over 1095 that can still hit similar price ranges. I paid about the same for my Izula (1095), Frontier Valley (O1) and Landi PSK (A2), and the A2 knife has worked best for me. The most corrosion resistant of the three, and the best edge holding.
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Re: Question about A2?

#20

Post by standy99 »

Deadboxhero wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 1:18 pm
Not much advantage for performance.

Only advantage is novelty

A2 is outclassed by the steels we have available today.

CPM Cruwear, PD-1, Z-Wear
Are tougher, cut longer, sharpens excellently and are less reactive.

CPM 3v
Also tougher, cuts longer, less reactive also sharpens well.

Z-tuff, CD-1

Some of the toughest and still cuts longer than A2.

A2 has a rather coarse microstructure with chunky
undissolved chromiumm carbides, that's why it's also still a more reactive, the Chromium is mostly locked up in Carbides and not free in solution to help build a oxide layer to prevent rust.

So from a performance stand point A2 is not as good.

From a novelty stand point the more the merrier but there are other more interesting steels that are more worthwhile.



jdw wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2020 8:31 am
A couple of times recently I have read A2 brought up as a suggestion for both a Military and a fixed blade. It left me wondering what the advantages of using this steel would be? There seems to be similar and superior steels out there but I wonder what I'm missing? Thanks folks.
Dead right, so many steels that are a step above nowadays.
Seems the knife buyer is becoming the spoilt for choice buyer more and more each year.

So many steels not enough time......
Im a vegetarian as technically cows are made of grass and water.
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