Can we (civilly) discuss fixed blade prices?

[Evil D]

I'd like to know what effects the cost of fixed blades vs folders. There has to be more to it than I see and rationalize in my head because looking in from the outside, I see a fixed blade as being significantly simpler to manufacture than a folder, it has less parts, less machining, and the only thing I really see that could effect cost is the sheath and using more of the primary steel vs how much a folder uses.

Here's a couple examples..

Jumpmaster 2, MSRP is $250
Pacific 2, MSRP is $140

Where is that extra $110 going in the Jumpmaster? It has around 1/2-3/4 inch more blade length, is the sheath just really expensive to make? Is it even a full tang knife? How much steel really goes into the handle? Does molding the handle to the blade increase cost?

Proficient, MSRP $490

Zoomer, MSRP $600....!? Is 20CV crazy expensive? Is that handle design just hard to do?


Is it something with the steels being thicker stock and more expensive to source?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around a Zoomer MSRP being $600 and the 20CV Para 2 MSRP being $226. What about the cost of making a Zoomer is 3x the cost? Is it a low volume = higher cost thing?


I'm not saying Spyderco are price gouging. I really just need some insight. Murray Carter said in a video once that when you buy a folder you're paying partially for the lock and engineering that goes into it, but when buying a fixed blade the cost is almost entirely in the steel. Am I really buying 3x as much 20CV in a Zoomer? I'm sure some of that is designer royalties?

[Pancake]

Look at the Zoomer or Proficient handle: METRIC TON of machining, sanding and polishing. That is most of the price I would say.
When you compare that to the Para 2 handle, just a slab of G10, some internal milling and you are done.

Spyderco fixed are on the expensive side. Japanese line is more expensive then the value it has IMO.
Best value, IMO, is Waterway and Province. I cant really wrap my head why the Province (one of the largest fixed blade in the line-up) is cheaper then Proficient, again, my theory is the handle machining, which is simpler on Province.

EDIT: On the other hand, Junction has a really simple handle, just slabs of G10 without much contouring, and it was also on expensive side.

[SG89]

Is it the higher cost that keeps people away from spydie fixed blades or the fact that the fixed blade market is much smaller than the folder market?
I wonder if the Bow River has sold that well? If it hasn't, is it because of the steel used and the country of manufacture? The fixed blade market seems like a more difficult market to find a footing in compared to folders.

[BG-ThatsMe]

I would imagine a significant contribution to retail cost is the lack of economies of scale for Spyderco’s FB market compared to their folder market.

If Spyderco produced fixed blades in the large runs like folders I suspect the costs could be reduced.

Obviously the zoomer or the proficient are very expensive to produce compared to the Perrin knives, but with relatively few units produced it’s tough to allocate all the costs and keep retail cost down.

[Evil D]

Look at the Zoomer or Proficient handle: METRIC TON of machining, sanding and polishing. That is most of the price I would say.
When you compare that to the Para 2 handle, just a slab of G10, some internal milling and you are done.

Ok but $374 more?

Gotta be more to it than machining and polishing unless that's all done by hand?

[SG89]

People just aren't buying fixed blades in the same number as folders and price doesn't have much to do with it. If you aren't legally allowed to own or carry a fixed blade you probably won't buy very many if at all.

[bearfacedkiller]

I think it is economies of scale. Spyderco sells less fixed blades so they need to charge more for each one of them.

The other issue is that Spydercos fixed blade prices are similar to the prices of many custom or handmade fixed blades. The Proficient is a very nice knife but for $350 you can buy a handmade knife by a craftsman here in the US.

I own a bunch of Spydercos fixed blades. Puukko, Bradley Bowie, Temp2, Southfork, Sprig, Bushcraft, Proficient, Street Beat and a pile of Mules. It is hard to justify the cost of many of them but I am a Spyderco junkie.

[JohnDoe99]

Most (if not all?) of the fixed blades are designed by custom knife makers, and as with the folders that extra money is because of their name. It's not about cost, with these it is "name brand." It's the same reason why some people pay $80,000 for a single cab Chevrolet truck with a cover on the back and that has the name "Yukon Denali" on it.

"Capitalism."

[yablanowitz]

There is also the fact that those custom makers/collaborators get royalties for using their designs.

On the subject of the Zoomer, costs add up. Royalty to the designer, extra cost of 20CV steel, extra cost of machining that steel, cost of 1"+ thick handle material, cost of machining that handle (which appears to be one piece even though it can't be, the fit and finish are so good). Shoot, the sheath alone would likely cost you a C-note to have made.

[vivi]

My Spyderco fixed blade collection is made up of their more modestly priced models. The two Perrin designs, aqua salt, ronin 2, ark etc.

The high cost of some of their fixed models have kept mefrom buying them. Bradley Bowie, Zoomer, Temperance 2 etc. Knives I probably would have bought if they made a version that could have hit the $100-150 range.

In that price range I can get hand made customs, LT Wrights, Bark Rivers etc.

[The Deacon]

As others have noted it's definitely the cumulative effect of a combination of factors. Economy of scale certainly enters into it. Materials and machining complexity can add to the cost. Country of manufacture and exchange rates can also enter into it, as can differences in the royalty percentages paid to each collaboration model's designer.

[Michael Janich]

Hey, Evil D:

The Zoomer is actually a great example of how the costs on fixed blades can stack up.

First of all, in simple terms, every product starts with a "landed cost." This is particularly true of products made outside the US, as importing them requires overseas freight and payment of import duties.

Before those come into play, you have the cost of the product itself. In the case of the Zoomer, you start with CPM 20CV--an American-made steel. We ship that to Taiwan, as it cannot be locally sourced there. Steel is, of course, heavy, so the shipping costs are significant.

The blade of the Zoomer has an appleseed grind and an angled shoulder at the grind plunge. It is not an easy blade to grind and requires extra time and effort.Time and effort in production translates to higher cost.

The handle of the Zoomer is a very complex, two-piece construction with lots of intricate contours. It must start from thicker stock and requires lots of machine time. Time, again, equals money.

The sheath for the Zoomer is also very complex, made from high-quality leather, and manufactured in Spain. It must also be imported, requiring freight and import duties.

Once the knife and sheath are both "landed" in Golden, packaging, product literature, and anything else necessary to create the finished product are added to its final cost. That cost is then plugged into the economics of two-step distribution. In addition to selling directly to dealers, Spyderco also sells to distributors, who, in-turn, sell to dealers. Distributors buy in greater volume and typically receive deeper discounts. Everybody in the distribution food chain needs to eat, so there has to be a profit margin for the participants at every level.

To make the economics of the model work, landed cost is used to determine an MSRP. Discounts for the various levels within the distribution network are then calculated from that base value. Since the advent of the Internet and dealers who sell with little or no overhead, few sellers actually sell at the MSRP, but it's still necessary to establish a base value on the product from which to work.

When I used to manage a "lesser" knife company, these same economics applied--with a vengeance. The management of that company was heavily focused on profit margin and price point, so I had to crunch numbers hard to achieve acceptable target MSRPs. When I would get quotes from manufacturers, I would ask for multiple steel options, handle materials, coatings, etc. I would look at the base production cost (based on machining time and effort) and then play with combinations of materials until I created a worthwhile product that also fit the management's cost parameters. It's kind of like going to a restaurant with a fixed amount of cash in your pocket and wanting the best meal you can get. You play with the a a la carte menu, swapping appetizers, entrees, desserts, and drinks to create the best feast you can, while remembering to leave a proper tip at the end.

The BIG difference with Spyderco is that we try to let the merits of a particular design determine the quality and cost of the finished product. Rather than cutting corners to hit a price point, we try to realize the full potential of the design--especially in the case of collaborators and custom makers. Oh, that reminds me... Royalties to designers are yet another "line item" on landed cost...

I hope this helps shed some light on the complexities of the process.

Stay safe,

Mike

[Pancake]

Thank you Mr. Janich for detailed info.

[VooDooChild]

More materials, more removal, more grinding, etc.

I like spydercos fixed blades but they are also much more of a folding knife company. Whatever you are producing more of is where you can start saving on cost.

[Evil D]

Hey, Evil D:

The Zoomer is actually a great example of how the costs on fixed blades can stack up.


Stay safe,

Mike

That's all a lot of what I expected, though I did forget about the appleseed grind part of the Zoomer. A lot of that makes me think everyone would save a lot of money if that knife and probably others were just made in Golden instead. I know capacity is a constant struggle but it sounds like it could be brought to the public significantly cheaper if it were made here.

[Naperville]

My Spyderco fixed blade collection is made up of their more modestly priced models. The two Perrin designs, aqua salt, ronin 2, ark etc.

The high cost of some of their fixed models have kept mefrom buying them. Bradley Bowie, Zoomer, Temperance 2 etc. Knives I probably would have bought if they made a version that could have hit the $100-150 range.

In that price range I can get hand made customs, LT Wrights, Bark Rivers etc.

You do not think that Spyderco Knives are of better Steel and Better Heat Treat than LT Wrights and Bark River Knives? Maybe it's just me, but my Spydercos are all like custom knives.

In the Spyderco fixed blade knives that I've purchased the designs and steels are second to none. And, I'm always pushing for better steels on the few fixed blade knives that I want from Spyderco, and they just may listen, but no other manufacturer is going to listen to me at all!

EDIT:
NOTE! I have a Bark River Machete in 1V on order, but I waited 2 years to get in on it.

WHAT I HAVE:
- Spyderco Province Fixed Blade in CPM-4V
- Spyderco Jumpmaster 2 Fixed Blade in H1
- Spyderco Stuart Ackerman Sustain Fixed Blade in 20CV

AND I'D LIKE:
- Street Bowie in 4V
- Street Beat in 20CV

[vivi]

My Spyderco fixed blade collection is made up of their more modestly priced models. The two Perrin designs, aqua salt, ronin 2, ark etc.

The high cost of some of their fixed models have kept mefrom buying them. Bradley Bowie, Zoomer, Temperance 2 etc. Knives I probably would have bought if they made a version that could have hit the $100-150 range.

In that price range I can get hand made customs, LT Wrights, Bark Rivers etc.

You do not think that Spyderco Knives are of better Steel and Better Heat Treat than LT Wrights and Bark River Knives? Maybe it's just me, but my Spydercos are all like custom knives.

In the Spyderco fixed blade knives that I've purchased the designs and steels are second to none. And, I'm always pushing for better steels on the few fixed blade knives that I want from Spyderco, and they just may listen, but no other manufacturer is going to listen to me at all!

Sometimes they are, sometimes they aren't.

The Aqua Salt in H1 is incomparable to the stainless fixed blades from those companies, while the VG10/FRN Street Beat doesn't do anything an A2/Micarta LT Wright can't.

Enuffs are twice the price of LT Wright Frontier Valleys, and in my opinion the LT's look a lot better. I can get a 3V Bark River Kephart with a 5" blade for $100 less than the Proficient. Just a couple of examples off the top of my head.

The things I like about Spyderco fixed blades VS others are the option for rust proof steels, the sheaths, the g-clip, and unique designs like the Reverse and Swick.

LT gets their heat treating done by Peters in Meadville, PA. Every knife I've had heat treated by them, regardless of the maker, has performed flawlessly. I have several A2 knives at 61 rc from them and its one of my favorite steels for small to medium fixed blades.

[Pancake]

Hey David
My oersonal limit os around 250€.
That is kinda a problem here in Europe, prices are very high, Proficient is around 320€.
I am looking forward for every fixed blade, maybe I will not buy, but I am looking for it.
More Phil Wilson colabs, like his semi skinner, or in house designs, yeah, moar fixed blades.

Spyderco is known for folders, so fixed blades are more of a niche.


Vivi: I hate you that you live in USA and you can get Bark River so much easier and cheaper then I in Europe :D

[vivi]

Hey David
My oersonal limit os around 250€.
That is kinda a problem here in Europe, prices are very high, Proficient is around 320€.
I am looking forward for every fixed blade, maybe I will not buy, but I am looking for it.
More Phil Wilson colabs, like his semi skinner, or in house designs, yeah, moar fixed blades.

Spyderco is known for folders, so fixed blades are more of a niche.


Vivi: I hate you that you live in USA and you can get Bark River so much easier and cheaper then I in Europe :D

Not just Bark River but lots of small makers. Here's one I got in A2 like I was talking about. Kydex sheath, sculpted micarta scales, all for under $80. When I compare something like that to a $200 Temp 2 its tough to justify the Spyderco.

[curlyhairedboy]

Thanks for the insight, Mike!

Having been recently bit by the Spydie Fixed blade bug (just when I thought I was developing immunity, I get bit by another Spyder), it does seem that the overall vision of the knife impacts the final price a lot more than usual.

For so many knives made in Taichung, there's only a single run, fixed or folding. That means, compared to the Manix or PM2 or Para 3, where tens of thousands more are sold with non-structural changes (steel and handles change, new tooling costs are avoided), the relative complexity of a new visionary design can't be amortized to nearly the same extent.

I'd like to add that the Mule program shows a pretty decent window into how costs shake out when the complexity is pared away.