Spyderco chinese cleaver (cai dao)?

[Stuka]

I noticed Spyderco makes both a santoku and nakiri among their kitchen knives. Has there been any interest or discussion about a larger knife in the style of a traditional thin chinese cleaver? The CCK 1303 used to be a good deal at $40 but its price has jumped up over the last few years to more like $80-90 due to its increasing popularity. It would be interesting if Spyderco could make a cleaver in a similar profile, thin and without too much belly (the main reason for the popularity of the CCK knives despite its cheap construction) but in a better steel like bd1n.

[Fireman]

At the station we cook for at least 15 (sometimes up to double that) people a hot meal 3 times a day. The first few years when I was not on a medical call, traffic collision or on a fire I would be the lead cook for most meals all 3 days (But now I try to keep it to one day) of my weekly shift since I am the better cook and people would just rather that I cook over the other guys so we would not waste food (good food rarely goes to waste) and honestly, I liked eating my cooking. I use pretty much 4 knives in the kitchen and roughly, in order of use are;
a. 7” German style Chinese cleaver (80%)
b. 7” Chef Knife (10%)
c. 4” paring knife (5%)
d. 12” butchers knife (5%)

At home, my needs are a bit different with a family of 6 with three being hungry and growing teens.

a. 8” chefs knife (40%)
d. 3.75” paring knife (40%)
c. 5” German style Chinese cleaver/vegetable cleaver (20%)

The overwhelming use of the vegetable or German style Chinese cleaver is due to the amount of vegetable prep but also that it can do most of my food prep chores when cooking for more than a large family.

I cannot cook for up to 6 hours a day with the poor ergonomics of the traditional Chinese cleaver. The way I hold the knife would just cause a horrible hot spot on my index finger.

I have bought a few vegetable cleavers over the years, being very picky and none of them are perfect either being the weight or the ergos or size and they need moding to get them to be acceptable. To say that I am a vegetable cleaver snob is an understatement. I understand that I would have to get a custom knife made or make it myself to be completely happy with it.

All that said, I would love to see a spyderco vegetable cleaver that would feel like an extension of my hand with excellent ergos and be ideal for hours a day use. I have my ideas on what makes a good one if anyone needs me :D

[Stuka]

I cannot cook for up to 6 hours a day with the poor ergonomics of the traditional Chinese cleaver. The way I hold the knife would just cause a horrible hot spot on my index finger.

All that said, I would love to see a spyderco vegetable cleaver that would feel like an extension of my hand with excellent ergos and be ideal for hours a day use. I have my ideas on what makes a good one if anyone needs me :D

That's a lot of cooking! I don't spend nearly so much time in the kitchen, but I do make a lot of dishes using cabbage and that has made me a fan of these knives. I'd be interested to get your take on the ideal cleaver. :)

[PayneTrain]

Fireman, I find it very interesting that you use a cleaver so much. I do a lot of cooking, pretty much all with a chef knife (homemade), boning knife (a custom), and whatever's in my pocket at the time. I don't even own a cleaver! I learned most of my cooking skills in a butcher shop/deli kitchen, and the only thing I ever used a cleaver for was to break through bones, mostly beef or pork loins. What am I missing out on? Outside of the obvious brute force situations, where do you find it works better than a chef knife? Perhaps I'm just the person Spyderco needs to make a cleaver for, though they better hurry up because I'm liable to make one for myself!

Now that I think about it, when I made my chef knife I actually purposely made the first 4" or so very square and cleaver-like, resulting in a rather unconventional shape and a very different rocking action than most chef knives. It doesn't have the mass of a proper cleaver or quite as much width, but I think it's trending towards the Chinese-style cleaver which appears to be basically a rectangular chef knife. Is that fair?

[bearfacedkiller]

Payne, I like to call them Chinese chefs knives instead of Chinese cleavers. Calling it a cleaver is a misnomer. A good Chinese chefs knife is very thin and excels at slicing and transferring food to a pan. They are not for chopping up bones like a western cleaver.

I would be interested. I have a Dexter Russel Chinese chefs knife and I like it very much.

The Spyderco Santoku has a rather tall blade and has some Chinese chefs knife qualities.

We recently had a thread about tall blades. This knife has a 3.5 inch tall blade made from 1/8 inch blade stock which makes the primary grind angle very acute.

[Dazen]

I want an AEB-L Chinese Chefs Knife so bad but I can’t find one.

[sal]

Hi Stuka,

Welcome to our forum.

We looked a making a Bob Lum design years ago.

sal

[DigDug72]

Oh man, a Spydie Lum cai dao would be beyond epic! Got a cai dao for my wife last Xmas, and its our go to food prep knife now for many things (yeah, especially slicing veggies). Agree with Fireman that the traditional ergos need help, and I can't imagine a team that would do that better than Spyderco!

[bearfacedkiller]

I am curious what you guys would like to see for a handle? I like the little barrel handle on these. It is my understanding that these are meant to be used in a choked up pinch grip with two or three fingers on the handle which is the reason for the current handle style. I sometimes wish the handle on mine was even smaller.

I have used mine a lot but don’t have any experience with other Chinese chefs knives. I have always been curious though. :)

[N. Brian Huegel]

Hi Sal:

Don't forget the Taiwanese Cinnamon knife. :D

brian

[zhyla]

I don’t use my Chinese cleaver frequently. The main reason is it doesn’t fit in my knife drawer. So I haven’t built up the skills and muscle memory with it like I have with santokus.

My guess is any decent steel will do the job. They are made for slicing veggies so the edge doesn’t take a lot of damage.

My standard question: what would Spyderco bring to the party? Despite this being a tried and true design I have to say the ergos are pretty bad. The way you hold these is unique but maybe a better grip design will help.

[Stuka]

I think one of the things spyderco is really good at is ergonomics. If they could make a design that feels good in the intended choked up position but also alleviates some of the issues with hot spots that could be a selling point. Whatever is done for ergonomics, the knife still has to function as a tool for not only cutting but also transferring food. Personally, I have just been looking for one in a quality stainless steel and they seem very hard to find unless you go custom.

Sal, any particular reason you guys did not move ahead with the Bob Lum design?

[Cambertree]

That's a lot of cooking! I don't spend nearly so much time in the kitchen, but I do make a lot of dishes using cabbage and that has made me a fan of these knives. I'd be interested to get your take on the ideal cleaver. :)

Have you tried a Nakiri? The pattern was developed specifically for fine slicing cabbages in Okonomiyaki restaurants.(Okonomiyaki is a kind of cabbage omelette/pancake which is popular in and around Osaka.)

Nakiri knives superficially look like a cleaver but they have very thin bladestock, and are excellent at slicing all sorts of vegetables. I use one a lot in the kitchen.

The cleaverlike profile means they always stay the same length as the steel is sharpened away over their lifetime, which allows them to fully slice through a cabbage. A spearpointed chef knife gets shorter over time from many resharpenings.

I have a pretty nice Misono No. 61 Chinese Cooks knife. I can’t say I use it that much, despite growing up in a house where the ‘Chinese Cleaver’ was one of the mainstays in the kitchen.



The bladestock is about 2.5mm thick in front of the handle, and tapers to less than 1mm thick near the tip.

The handles are fairly neutral and basic. I wonder if the standard type Spyderco handle on the polyproplylene kitchen knives might work well?

AEB-L would be my first thought too, for a Spydie Chinese Cleaver. MBS26 would still be ok though.

[sal]

Hi Brian,

Already designed And ready. Part of the new Kitchen knife program for the future. Thanx.

Hey Stuka,

We questioned the size of the intended market.

sal

[Stuka]

Sal,

Thank you for sharing. I figured it was a question of a market size. My impression is that the cleaver has become more familiar and accepted among western chefs in recent years. Certainly still a niche market outside of Asia, but it's seen enough growth that the popular CCK knives have doubled in price over the last few years.

[Stuka]

Cambertree,

I have a 165mm nakiri that I like for especially thin slicing. I find the taller blade of a cleaver to be more versatile though, at least for me, if I am doing bulk cutting.

I know the savory pancakes you are talking about, they are tasty. I am in Los Angeles so there's lots of great Japanese food to enjoy here. :)

[Fireman]

This has some decent info. I like the shun blade even though it is a bit too long but it is not that great at the ergonomics department but a decent modern and classic Chinese chef knife in my opinion.

https://www.thebreslin.com/best-chinese-cleaver/amp/

The best description is a Chinese Chef Knife for us westerners. It is a heck of a lot more than just a vegetable knife and is not a heavy and blunt inertia cutter.

A couple of the above knives get close to a decent hybrid western Chinese chef knife. For my needs, a 6-6.5” blade length is ideal and not to heavy/thick so your movements are fluid and nimble with a long narrowing taper to a thin edge.

My chef knife pictured below has amazing ergonomics once you do a tiny bit of dehorning. My ideal Chinese chef knife would use the same blade/handle junction so you use it in a quasi pinch grip for efficient and ergonomic use. The design changes the way you use your knife and your index finger and thumb pull the knife into your hand to feel like an extension of your hand because it is locked in in a comfortable and natural way. I have my opinions on a modified version of that to make it even better although maybe not as modern and clean as this looks.

[Cambertree]

Cambertree,

I have a 165mm nakiri that I like for especially thin slicing. I find the taller blade of a cleaver to be more versatile though, at least for me, if I am doing bulk cutting.

I know the savory pancakes you are talking about, they are tasty. I am in Los Angeles so there's lots of great Japanese food to enjoy here. :)

Ah, that’s good you have a nakiri, Stuka. I really enjoy that pattern - it’s probably one of my two most used knives in the kitchen, the other being a funayuki.

I’m jealous of all the Japanese food you must have access to in LA!

We’ve just come out of a fairly long lockdown in Melbourne, Australia, and one of the first things I did when the markets reopened was to get an okonomiyaki pancake from a stall run by a guy from Osaka!

I should try using my Misono cleaver more, after hearing how much you guys use yours.

Most of the Chinese I know do use the word English word ‘Cleaver’ for these knives, although they’re not knife afi’s.

A lot of Chinese style cooking involves chopping through poultry, fish, pork bones etc, so the meat cuts are cooked with the bone in, and some of the marrow flavours the dish too. As mentioned above, though, these knives are a fair bit more versatile than a western style butchers cleaver.

[Dazen]

I think it would be nice to have one with a very steep K tip, and reverse angle on the on the heel.

Kind of like this.

[sal]

FYI,

Spyderco was the first company in the US to make a Santoku. Now everyone makes one.

sal