CNC serrations

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zhyla
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CNC serrations

#1

Post by zhyla »

Somewhere in a recent SE topic some people, mostly me, were discussing something about using CNC to cut serrations. I've been wanting to try this for a while so I gave it a go this weekend.

DISCLAIMER: this is not for the faint of heart. This first pass came out ugly.

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That's a chunk of O-1 in its annealed state mounted in a vise at an angle at about 25 degrees. 1/4" 4 flute end mill at about 1200 RPM, 4 ipm. Other than a goof up in the CNC program itself (I haven't investigated but I swear Fusion 360 goofed up something in the middle) which you'll see later, it went ok.

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Cleaning the serrations up with a round file. By the way, if you need to do small amounts of serrations this is how they're done, just a round file and some patience. I mainly had to bring the file to bear because of the goofup which resulted in the middle serrations way deeper than they should be.

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Here it is all done with heat treatment. You can see the middle portion is pretty janky.

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"Finished", lol. I didn't bother with much finish work, just cleaned it up with a 120 grit belt, filed the serrations again, and then sharpened on a sharp maker.

Observations:

1. Evil D is always poo-pooing really pointy serrations. This is a good case study on what not to do. It's hard to get the work started.

2. The lack of the small serrations makes it hard to get a good grip on the work. IMO the alternating large/small serrations are what make SpyderEdge what it is. I'm curious how Sal arrived at that design.

3. These serrations are way too deep. It's like having a stick with a bunch of needles sticking out of it. More dangerous to handle than I'm used to.

4. Could you make serrations like this in production? Ooof, well I think so. Even the serrations that roughly came out as they should needed a bit of touching up with the file to get the teeth to form a point. This is tedious detail work. The grinder wheels give you this for free. You also probably want to do this after heat treatment if possible as the warpage on the teeth can be significant. I think that means using a grinding tool instead of an end mill and doing everything in a bath of coolant.

I'll probably come back to this in a month or two. I think the next iteration is to use a smaller end mill and better toolpaths and do something that is more wavy than pointy and possibly try a mix of small/large serrations.

The other thing I wanted to try is machining the serrations from both sides. This may be a bit of a pipe dream as I will probably bore of this rather than obsess about it.
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Naperville
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Re: CNC serrations

#2

Post by Naperville »

Great effort!

What you've learned cannot be taught. You had to figure some things out for yourself.
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Bill1170
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Re: CNC serrations

#3

Post by Bill1170 »

Couldn’t a CBN-coated wheel with a rounded rim cut the hardened blank? In a vertical mill that’d mean clamping the blank vertically. With CBN it could be done dry or wet. A single small wheel could cut serrations large and small, but the process would be slow.
JD Spydo
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Re: CNC serrations

#4

Post by JD Spydo »

What limited experience I've had working with CNC equipment I'm not so sure that there is any significant advantages for Spyderco to make their SE blades with that type of equipment. It might be one of those cases of "If It Isn't Broke, Then Don't Try To Fix It". Because using grinding wheels I'm sure would be a lot cheaper in the long haul.

I got a feeling that it would have been done already if there were a huge advantage. But it's interesting to chat about.
zhyla
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Re: CNC serrations

#5

Post by zhyla »

JD, there are a couple advantages with CNC. One is you can grind both sides of the serrations. The other is you can easily experiment with variations in serration patterns/sizes/geometry.
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Re: CNC serrations

#6

Post by JD Spydo »

zhyla wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:36 pm
JD, there are a couple advantages with CNC. One is you can grind both sides of the serrations. The other is you can easily experiment with variations in serration patterns/sizes/geometry.
Yeah that is something to consider for sure. I would think that "tool wear" would be a factor doing serrations with CNC equipment. And the more I think about it I'm willing to bet that doing rounded/wavy types of serration patterns with CNC tools might be considerably easier.
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Evil D
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Re: CNC serrations

#7

Post by Evil D »

JD Spydo wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:14 am
And the more I think about it I'm willing to bet that doing rounded/wavy types of serration patterns with CNC tools might be considerably easier.

I wonder how difficult it is to just change the shape of the grinding wheel that currently cuts the serrations? They're obviously capable of different patterns, judging by the kitchen knives.

I don't think producing rounded teeth is such a good idea, even with how much I think they perform better, because those who actually want them pointy will have a harder job making them pointy than I do rounding them off. I'd just like to see the patterns done more shallow like the Caribbean and the blade grinds done a bit thinner than what Seki produces.
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zhyla
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Re: CNC serrations

#8

Post by zhyla »

I’m not sure how the grinding wheels are fabricated but my guess is you start over if you need a different shape.
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