Another "mini" Police thread?

[sal]

Hi Paul,

The Police 4 is much narrower, with little or no "palm swell" and no "hook" at the butt. It's really surprising how a different length really changes the design. I've been rotating an straight spine Stretch in the 3.5" version and a prototype of the 4" blade version and the 1/2" does make a difference even though we kept the "cock-pit" the same.

Hey Albatross,

I've stated a drawing of the model to see how it works. It will look a bit "chunky" compared with the longer P4, but I don't want to change the "cock-pit" or make it any narrower.

Hi James,

I would use the same grind as the P4.

sal

[JuPaul]

I will always be adamantly against simply just scaling knives up or down to get a new model. I think it's lazy and deceptive design, but thats just me.

The Rookie is pretty much a 3 inch version of the Police. I think a Rookie sprint run in K390/G10 would be very popular.

I generally agree with what you have said about the scaling being lazy and deceptive, but if it were requested by enough people(I doubt a smaller Police will be), then it's not being lazy or deceptive in my opinion, it's just catering to market demand.

The Rookie looks like a great knife and I would 100% buy one if it came back, but I have 3 issues with it: there's no forward choil, the handle is less flowing/more confined to certain grips than the Police 4, and it's a 3" blade vs the 3.5" I would like to see.

Maybe a redesigned Rookie, with a choil, more flowing grip area, and 3.5" blade would do it for me, I can't say without seeing one though. I suppose the Rookie would have to be redesigned anyway, because it was based on an older Police model, so I'll stay open to the idea.

I would be very, very interested in this, as well as in a sprint of the Rookie. I've been dancing around the Police for a while now - there's so much to love in that design - but it's really too big to be practical (or legal) for me to edc.

[Albatross]

I'd imagine a 3.5" Police would still offer a full grip behind the choil.

Have you considered modding an Endura to have an index choil? The Pacific Salt in my pocket has one in fact.

(Waiting too long to finish typing this, I see that Sal already covered the issues with using the Stretch as a surrogate, so pardon the redundancy)

I think so too, so long as nothing is changed to make it like the Stretch or PM2. The tapered, rounded-off end of the P4 handle is a big part of why it's so versatile, in terms of grip options, and any swell or hook at the end of the handle would ruin things imo.

I hadn't considered modding an Endura, but I have been looking at the Caly 3.5. I figured I could grind the spine of the blade down to a more Police-like shape.

I have a "beater" Endura ZDP-189 that I could possibly try adding a choil to. The "points" of the handle would need to be ground down, but that's easily done. If I did that, I would need to get a Pakkawood Endura for the final product. Maybe...

Edit: I walked away from typing this and started modding my Endura, to see how it would work. It's better than before, but not nearly as nice as the P4. I'll post pictures when I get around to finishing it.

[Albatross]

Hi Paul,

The Police 4 is much narrower, with little or no "palm swell" and no "hook" at the butt. It's really surprising how a different length really changes the design. I've been rotating an straight spine Stretch in the 3.5" version and a prototype of the 4" blade version and the 1/2" does make a difference even though we kept the "cock-pit" the same.

Hey Albatross,

I've stated a drawing of the model to see how it works. It will look a bit "chunky" compared with the longer P4, but I don't want to change the "cock-pit" or make it any narrower.

Hi James,

I would use the same grind as the P4.

sal

Wow, that's fantastic, I didn't expect to see anything about a sketch for a while.

Is the intent to keep the handle and blade at the same height as the P4, but shorter in length, with the same thickness?

[Wartstein]

I know there have been requests for a scaled-down Police, but with the P4 G10 going away, what are the odds of a flash batch(or better yet, standard offering) Police, that's smaller, with full liners and G10? A smaller Police with a 3 5" blade, K390 or S90V (and carbon fiber scales to keep with tradition) would be the perfect edc knife, in my opinion. The P4 G10 is deceptively good in so many ways, but it can be too big for some situations or tasks. I think a slight redesign, like the PM2‐>Para3 changes, might ruin the parts of the P4 I love so much, which is why a "simple"(aside from the design side aspect) scaling-down would be perfect for me.

......

I am definitely interested, but still not sure what (dimensions) we are talking here exactly:

- I really like the overall design of the Police but never got one since it is just too big in the pocket for me - so a smaller version is certainly intriguing
- But: 3.5" blade would mean more or less Endela (and not Endura) size, right? (Endela: Blade length 3.41, but perhaps relatively to that length just a tad more cutting edge than a Police, since it has no choil but a Ricasso; furtermore, the Endela-blade does not fill all of the handle when closed, so I guess the Endela handle is pretty similar in length to what a 3.5" Police would offer.)
- So for you as a interim solution modding an Endela perhaps would be the better choice than modding an Endura (3.80 blade), especially since the Endela has less pronounced "points" between the finger grooves already anyway?
- For me though the Endela size is a bit small for a general EDC. I personally would want a Mini-Police to have around Endura size and so offering an alternative to my favorite folder (the Endura)

[Cambertree]

I’m always up for more K390 in thin blades, and a new G10 Rookie would be great.

A blacked out TiCN version, like the old ‘Navy Seal’ Police, would be pretty cool.

Although, for practical purposes, I’d be just as happy with a K390 SS Stretch.

[vivi]

I'd imagine a 3.5" Police would still offer a full grip behind the choil.

Have you considered modding an Endura to have an index choil? The Pacific Salt in my pocket has one in fact.

(Waiting too long to finish typing this, I see that Sal already covered the issues with using the Stretch as a surrogate, so pardon the redundancy)

I think so too, so long as nothing is changed to make it like the Stretch or PM2. The tapered, rounded-off end of the P4 handle is a big part of why it's so versatile, in terms of grip options, and any swell or hook at the end of the handle would ruin things imo.

I hadn't considered modding an Endura, but I have been looking at the Caly 3.5. I figured I could grind the spine of the blade down to a more Police-like shape.

I have a "beater" Endura ZDP-189 that I could possibly try adding a choil to. The "points" of the handle would need to be ground down, but that's easily done. If I did that, I would need to get a Pakkawood Endura for the final product. Maybe...

Edit: I walked away from typing this and started modding my Endura, to see how it would work. It's better than before, but not nearly as nice as the P4. I'll post pictures when I get around to finishing it.

Excited to see it and read your thoughts on it.

[JRinFL]

I will always be adamantly against simply just scaling knives up or down to get a new model. I think it's lazy and deceptive design, but thats just me.

The Rookie is pretty much a 3 inch version of the Police. I think a Rookie sprint run in K390/G10 would be very popular.

Very much this ^

A sprint of the Rookie is needed I believe. I picked up an original one not too long ago and was pleasantly surprised at the design. I was also a bit surprised that it was not more popular back in the day. It really should be a staple model, IMO at least.

[carrot]

I really like the slim profile of the Police. Makes carrying a big blade easy. A Mini Police should have a similar affect. I loved the old Rookie. With a little more stretched out length and a finger choil it could dominate my EDC.

[sal]

Hi Albatross,

Yes, the heigth would remain the same. Just imagine the P4 with some taken off each end.

sal

[Tucson Tom]

Police is already the perfect size :cool:

Exactly.

Grab a G10 P4 if and while you can.

[Bemo]

Threads like this make me really appreciate Sal and designing so much more. I'm a Hobbit sized male, designing a knife for me and designing a knife that meets Vivi's needs would be near impossible. I picked up a Police LW 4 mostly to see how the choil works on a knife that for me is huge (I shall name you Sting). I for me a Endura is large for EDC, and one of the reasons I like the Stretch is the choil that makes the knife more much easier to use. If you could make an Endura sized version of the Police 4, that would be fantastic. Seems that the finger grooves (for lack of a better term) are universal in that they fit everyone poorly. One of the reasons I thing the Stretch 2 and the Rock Jumper are such great design. Thanks Sal for all you do in trying to appease us all.

[Doc Dan]

What about simply reprofiling the Endela handle to be more like the P4 in shape?

[Wartstein]

What about simply reprofiling the Endela handle to be more like the P4 in shape?

Yes, that´s what I said in my post above too - a 3.5" blade Police would be much closer in size to an Endela than to an Endura...

[Wartstein]

Threads like this make me really appreciate Sal and designing so much more. I'm a Hobbit sized male, designing a knife for me and designing a knife that meets Vivi's needs would be near impossible. I picked up a Police LW 4 mostly to see how the choil works on a knife that for me is huge (I shall name you Sting). I for me a Endura is large for EDC, and one of the reasons I like the Stretch is the choil that makes the knife more much easier to use. If you could make an Endura sized version of the Police 4, that would be fantastic. Seems that the finger grooves (for lack of a better term) are universal in that they fit everyone poorly. One of the reasons I thing the Stretch 2 and the Rock Jumper are such great design. Thanks Sal for all you do in trying to appease us all.

I have to disagree :)

- 1.) The "finger grooves" certainly do NOT "fit everyone poorly".

I for example like them a lot and they are part of why the Endura is my favorite folder of all times.
I have L to XL hands, so in the size range where some others say that they´d not like that the first finger groove is too large for one, but too small for two fingers. Not an issue for me personally at all (also not that one finger might rest on the "point" between the grooves)
And I may say that I really USE my knives, so this is based on real, personal experience.
The grooves make the knife more stable in my hand and less likely to "roll" (I seem to remember that the latter is something Sal mentioned once as a reason why he gave the Endura that grooves)
I am also pretty sure that the general market does like the shape of the Endura and Delica handle, given their success.

- 2.) The "choil of the Stretch" does not necessarely "make the knife much easier to use" than an Endura.

On this one I am most likely in a clear minority. But while I really like the Stretch handle and choil (especially on the "1"), the Endura is at least as "easy to use": I can choke up on the Ricasso better than on many (though not all!) choils, and if not choking up my hand is closer to the edge than on a knife with choil

No criticism towards you meant! :)
Just wanted to show that more things can be a matter of personal preference than many might think...

[Wartstein]

Hi Albatross,

Yes, the heigth would remain the same. Just imagine the P4 with some taken off each end.

sal

Sal, of how much "taking off of each end" are you thinking here(if you have considered this already in the first place)?

- Are we talking Endela/PM2-size (which is probably a very popular and legal-in-more-places size)?
- Or even smaller (the Police-style-handle (no "hook" at the end) would allow for that and still offer a full four finger grip behind the choil)?
- Or Endura-size (which I personally would prefer)?

[Albatross]

I know there have been requests for a scaled-down Police, but with the P4 G10 going away, what are the odds of a flash batch(or better yet, standard offering) Police, that's smaller, with full liners and G10? A smaller Police with a 3 5" blade, K390 or S90V (and carbon fiber scales to keep with tradition) would be the perfect edc knife, in my opinion. The P4 G10 is deceptively good in so many ways, but it can be too big for some situations or tasks. I think a slight redesign, like the PM2‐>Para3 changes, might ruin the parts of the P4 I love so much, which is why a "simple"(aside from the design side aspect) scaling-down would be perfect for me.

......

I am definitely interested, but still not sure what (dimensions) we are talking here exactly:

- I really like the overall design of the Police but never got one since it is just too big in the pocket for me - so a smaller version is certainly intriguing
- But: 3.5" blade would mean more or less Endela (and not Endura) size, right? (Endela: Blade length 3.41, but perhaps relatively to that length just a tad more cutting edge than a Police, since it has no choil but a Ricasso; furtermore, the Endela-blade does not fill all of the handle when closed, so I guess the Endela handle is pretty similar in length to what a 3.5" Police would offer.)
- So for you as a interim solution modding an Endela perhaps would be the better choice than modding an Endura (3.80 blade), especially since the Endela has less pronounced "points" between the finger grooves already anyway?
- For me though the Endela size is a bit small for a general EDC. I personally would want a Mini-Police to have around Endura size and so offering an alternative to my favorite folder (the Endura)

Yes, the Endela would be a better option, but I figured why not try it on an Endura that's my "beater" knife. What's the worst that could happen? I figure (when I finish the modifications) if it works out, I can then try on something like the Endela or a G10 Stretch.

3.5" is a bit small for me too, which is one of the reasons why I like the Police 4 so much. I carried a Manix 2 for a while yesterday, but went back to the Police, because the Manix felt too small. If I carried the Manix for a week, it would feel normal again. I go through a weird adjustment period each time I carry a different knife from my arsenal, even if I've carried it extensively in the past. Anyway...

Having said that, the smaller blade of something like an Endela or Manix 2, is sometimes a better option for certain social settings or more detailed cutting tasks. I don't carry my P4 outside my home very often, because of the public perception of large blades in my area. Like I said to vivi, around here an 8" kitchen knife is fine, but a large folder is somehow scary.

I wouldn't be opposed to an Endura-sized mini-Police.

[Albatross]

Threads like this make me really appreciate Sal and designing so much more. I'm a Hobbit sized male, designing a knife for me and designing a knife that meets Vivi's needs would be near impossible. I picked up a Police LW 4 mostly to see how the choil works on a knife that for me is huge (I shall name you Sting). I for me a Endura is large for EDC, and one of the reasons I like the Stretch is the choil that makes the knife more much easier to use. If you could make an Endura sized version of the Police 4, that would be fantastic. Seems that the finger grooves (for lack of a better term) are universal in that they fit everyone poorly. One of the reasons I thing the Stretch 2 and the Rock Jumper are such great design. Thanks Sal for all you do in trying to appease us all.

I have to disagree :)

- 1.) The "finger grooves" certainly do NOT "fit everyone poorly".

I for example like them a lot and they are part of why the Endura is my favorite folder of all times.
I have L to XL hands, so in the size range where some others say that they´d not like that the first finger groove is too large for one, but too small for two fingers. Not an issue for me personally at all (also not that one finger might rest on the "point" between the grooves)
And I may say that I really USE my knives, so this is based on real, personal experience.
The grooves make the knife more stable in my hand and less likely to "roll" (I seem to remember that the latter is something Sal mentioned once as a reason why he gave the Endura that grooves)
I am also pretty sure that the general market does like the shape of the Endura and Delica handle, given their success.

- 2.) The "choil of the Stretch" does not necessarely "make the knife much easier to use" than an Endura.

On this one I am most likely in a clear minority. But while I really like the Stretch handle and choil (especially on the "1"), the Endura is at least as "easy to use": I can choke up on the Ricasso better than on many (though not all!) choils, and if not choking up my hand is closer to the edge than on a knife with choil

No criticism towards you meant! :)
Just wanted to show that more things can be a matter of personal preference than many might think...

I think most people who are turned off by the Endura handle, are gripping the knife in the same way they would grip any other knife. That doesn't work so well, in my experience, but there are a few comfortable grip positions that work well for me, just not the "normal" grip.

I could be wrong, but I think this is where the differences in opinions of the Endura handle begins.

[Wartstein]

..

I think most people who are turned off by the Endura handle, are gripping the knife in the same way they would grip any other knife. That doesn't work so well, in my experience, but there are a few comfortable grip positions that work well for me, just not the "normal" grip.

I could be wrong, but I think this is where the differences in opinions of the Endura handle begins.

Of course that´s just me, but there must be more to personal preference on the Endura than "just" hand size relative to the handle:

- When I grip the Endura with the thumb on the ramp, my index finger is in the first groove, while my middle finger actually DOES sit on the "point" between first and second groove - that´s what many don´t like, but honestly:I DO. It does not bother me at all and feels good and stable
- When I grip the Endura with thumb on the SIDE of the blade (I do this a lot more often than using the ramp):
I somehow have BOTH index and middle finger more in that first groove - very comfortable either for me
- The grip I do NOT like is the one Vivi says he uses (but keep in mind: He certainly has a lot larger hands than my own L to XL): JUST the index finger in the first groove, and the middle finger in the second groove. This way the knife feels unstable to me and my hand is too far away from the edge.

Anyway, the Endura was (and still is) my favorite folder ever, and I just found it perfectly comfortable right from the beginning before I ever read that other people would not like the ergos...

[Maximumsmoochy]

I love the idea of a "compact" Police.

I have the P4 G10 and it's an amazing knife, but it can be a little unwieldy in some situations. A compact version with all the Police handle features Sal mentions (narrow handle, less tummy, less butt) would be beautiful.

The Delica/Endela/Endura models demonstrate that a family of similar knives with different dimensions meet a market demand. But I don't think the Police or Stretch are part of these families even if they are all from Seki - the handles are just too different.

Of course other Spydie families include the Native line (Lil, 5, Shaman, Chief) and the Military range.

I enjoy the Military and the Para 3 family because the blades and handles are so consistent across the range of total size. Sal has mentioned a few times the Stretch XL (growing family). Extending the family of Police to baby, mama and poppa bear would be consistent with Spyderco's MO and probably be a smash hit. I'm in.