DLT Cruwear purple Para3

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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nerdlock
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#101

Post by nerdlock »

BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:15 pm
TenGrainBread wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:24 pm
BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:04 pm
I think it’s time that they get put in the corner by Spyderco until they figure out a way to clean up these release fiascos.

For f-‘s sake...you have to be able to do better when you are generating that kind of revenue. That goes for Spyderco too.

I’d like to hear the response from Golden.
I guess I'm confused why people are calling this a "fiasco". Spyderco fulfilled the order to DLT, and DLT sold the knives. It's the (crazy) choice of the knife collectors to sit there and refresh their browser for 30 minutes. The outcome would be the same whether or not their server crashed - there's only so many knives and many times more people who want them, and so a lot of people won't get them. Whether the server handles the traffic or not doesn't change that.

The problem is the knife collectors' compulsive urge to get the new and cool thing, not Spyderco or DLT. Nobody needs a Cruwear PM2. It does the same thing as any other PM2, barring some truly minor variance in how frequently it needs to be sharpened.
The release was poorly executed, and that is not in dispute.

When an authorized dealer of a brand botches these types of events on more than 1 occasion, I think they should be held to account.

This reflects poorly on the brand, and if this were my company I would not be pleased.

I’m a bit tired of hearing the masses here blame flippers, collectors, etc for server crashes. Some retailers really need to remedy their technology issues. You can blame everyone else the first time this happens. When it repeatedly happens it becomes an issue for the retailer to solve. And if they don’t fix their customer service issues when releasing an exclusive Spyderco knife...why shouldn’t that get the attention of the leadership in Golden?

Except that during the past 2 DLT drops, the Cruwear Delica and the M390 Smock, this never happened at all. And they were using the same e-commerce platform as they did today on the Para 3 drop. If it did not happen on the other drops but only on this one, why put the blame solely on technology?

I agree their e-commerce platform wasn't able to handle the load at all. But that's because of the artificial demand created by this particular platform of knifes (PM2 and Para 3), all because some collectors decided that chasing after these particular knives was more desirable compared to chasing other Spyderco knives. And what particular bunch of people sees a demand for a particular product, and sees an opportunity to make a profit out of it? Scalpers, flippers, opportunistic collectors. No other way around it.

If it was only real knife afis who just want their copies of this knife drop, I doubt DLT's servers would have been overloaded that much. Again look at the Delica and Smock drop. It's the artificial demand created by the "collect 'em all" mentality of PM2/Para 3 collecting and the people opportunistic enough to profit from it.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#102

Post by nerdlock »

prndltech wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:02 pm
Even worse, I had one in my cart with a DLT account and couldn’t load PayPal fast enough or enter my CC # fast enough... so it was not just me, but the fact that someone who has an account with you and spends money there can have a knife sold out from under them in less than 30 seconds because apparently they don’t have a one click ordering option... well... That’s not right either.

Some use bots and scripts to automate their transactions. I'm really not sure how would it apply to DLT's case since their site seems to be secure enough (https) but its a known fact that scalpers and flippers use all kinds of automation technology to outsprint us normal people.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#103

Post by Spidey-Dawg »

All I did was hit refresh every 2 seconds for over 30 minutes straight; also had my phone doing the same thing. Both computer and phone were already logged into my DLT account. Somehow, I was able to add the knife to my cart and checkout. Hitting "confirm order" took about 45 seconds before I got the confirmation.

Sickening this crash even happened. DLT needs to take a massive dump on their hosting company and get someone capable of handling the traffic.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#104

Post by araneae »

prndltech wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:02 pm
nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:38 pm
And to be fair to them, this DID NOT happen during the last recent drops like the Delica and the Smock.
But it did happen with the Pm2 and para 3, cuz no one saw that happening :rolleyes:
araneae wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:46 pm
Some are insinuating that the dealer made $100K and doesn't care about the customer...
No, they didn’t make it after taxes and fees but that’s gotta be in the ballpark of what the sales numbers were and people are going to miss out. That’s the bottom line with an exclusive. However, the only part to care about here is the server issue, otherwise they’d just order a huge amount of knives so everyone could have one... but then they wouldn’t have this kind of sale volume if it wasn’t limited. It’s catch 22.
Sales numbers do not equal profit. Wholesale cost, overhead, shipping fees, credit card fees, taxes- those all have to be subtracted. How much do you think they paid for those Para 3's? It wasn't 0. There is certainly an up front cost to order an exclusive and this is probably a limiting factor for a small business. Could they have sold 1000 in a day? Maybe, but could they afford to order that many at once? Who knows. I'll hope they run a lightweight version sometime soon and have a better web solution in place. I will stop trying if they don't get it together.

Also, it's not really limited unless they decide to not run another batch. This is a dealer exclusive, not a sprint, they can order more at any time.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#105

Post by prndltech »

nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:11 pm
prndltech wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:02 pm
Even worse, I had one in my cart with a DLT account and couldn’t load PayPal fast enough or enter my CC # fast enough... so it was not just me, but the fact that someone who has an account with you and spends money there can have a knife sold out from under them in less than 30 seconds because apparently they don’t have a one click ordering option... well... That’s not right either.

Some use bots and scripts to automate their transactions. I'm really not sure how would it apply to DLT's case since their site seems to be secure enough (https) but its a known fact that scalpers and flippers use all kinds of automation technology to outsprint us normal people.
Somehow I can’t disagree, but I find that highly unlikely on a pocket knife sale? I dunno.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#106

Post by BG-ThatsMe »

nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:07 pm
BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 6:15 pm
TenGrainBread wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 3:24 pm
BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 2:04 pm
I think it’s time that they get put in the corner by Spyderco until they figure out a way to clean up these release fiascos.

For f-‘s sake...you have to be able to do better when you are generating that kind of revenue. That goes for Spyderco too.

I’d like to hear the response from Golden.
I guess I'm confused why people are calling this a "fiasco". Spyderco fulfilled the order to DLT, and DLT sold the knives. It's the (crazy) choice of the knife collectors to sit there and refresh their browser for 30 minutes. The outcome would be the same whether or not their server crashed - there's only so many knives and many times more people who want them, and so a lot of people won't get them. Whether the server handles the traffic or not doesn't change that.

The problem is the knife collectors' compulsive urge to get the new and cool thing, not Spyderco or DLT. Nobody needs a Cruwear PM2. It does the same thing as any other PM2, barring some truly minor variance in how frequently it needs to be sharpened.
The release was poorly executed, and that is not in dispute.

When an authorized dealer of a brand botches these types of events on more than 1 occasion, I think they should be held to account.

This reflects poorly on the brand, and if this were my company I would not be pleased.

I’m a bit tired of hearing the masses here blame flippers, collectors, etc for server crashes. Some retailers really need to remedy their technology issues. You can blame everyone else the first time this happens. When it repeatedly happens it becomes an issue for the retailer to solve. And if they don’t fix their customer service issues when releasing an exclusive Spyderco knife...why shouldn’t that get the attention of the leadership in Golden?

Except that during the past 2 DLT drops, the Cruwear Delica and the M390 Smock, this never happened at all. And they were using the same e-commerce platform as they did today on the Para 3 drop. If it did not happen on the other drops but only on this one, why put the blame solely on technology?

I agree their e-commerce platform wasn't able to handle the load at all. But that's because of the artificial demand created by this particular platform of knifes (PM2 and Para 3), all because some collectors decided that chasing after these particular knives was more desirable compared to chasing other Spyderco knives. And what particular bunch of people sees a demand for a particular product, and sees an opportunity to make a profit out of it? Scalpers, flippers, opportunistic collectors. No other way around it.

If it was only real knife afis who just want their copies of this knife drop, I doubt DLT's servers would have been overloaded that much. Again look at the Delica and Smock drop. It's the artificial demand created by the "collect 'em all" mentality of PM2/Para 3 collecting and the people opportunistic enough to profit from it.
What DLT does every day of the year with their site is irrelevant to this discussion. Why are we defending DLT? Let them come in here and try to earn some confidence back.

The fact remains that the pm2 killed the site. The pm3 did it again today.

When you generate $100k of revenue in 5 minutes...you need to do better than to have your site crash, especially when you already went through the same thing on the pm2.

There are no longer any secrets...DLT’s site can’t support the traffic necessary to have an acceptable buying experience for their customers with this type of release.

It’s a bad look for DLT, and it is also problematic for Spyderco (other than the obvious fact that these pm2/3 variants were both grand slams from a revenue perspective).
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#107

Post by prndltech »

araneae wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:21 pm
prndltech wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:02 pm
nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:38 pm
And to be fair to them, this DID NOT happen during the last recent drops like the Delica and the Smock.
But it did happen with the Pm2 and para 3, cuz no one saw that happening :rolleyes:
araneae wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 7:46 pm
Some are insinuating that the dealer made $100K and doesn't care about the customer...
No, they didn’t make it after taxes and fees but that’s gotta be in the ballpark of what the sales numbers were and people are going to miss out. That’s the bottom line with an exclusive. However, the only part to care about here is the server issue, otherwise they’d just order a huge amount of knives so everyone could have one... but then they wouldn’t have this kind of sale volume if it wasn’t limited. It’s catch 22.
Sales numbers do not equal profit. Wholesale cost, overhead, shipping fees, credit card fees, taxes- those all have to be subtracted. How much do you think they paid for those Para 3's? It wasn't 0. There is certainly an up front cost to order an exclusive and this is probably a limiting factor for a small business. Could they have sold 1000 in a day? Maybe, but could they afford to order that many at once? Who knows. I'll hope they run a lightweight version sometime soon and have a better web solution in place. I will stop trying if they don't get it together.

Also, it's not really limited unless they decide to not run another batch. This is a dealer exclusive, not a sprint, they can order more at any time.

They are limited, that’s why there sold out. I never said they wouldn’t order more...

And of course they didn’t net $100,000 (I didn’t say that either, read the post you quoted) but I’m sure they were near that gross in sales today. I’ve been in the automotive industry my entire life, I know sales numbers and I know overhead quite well. Bottom line, business was not done well today.

Edit: I’m done here after this reply. There’s really no point to any of this. It’s just a knife. The server crashed after customers were assured it wouldn’t happen. End of story.
Last edited by prndltech on Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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nerdlock
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#108

Post by nerdlock »

Nobody's defending DLT here (at least I'm not, pointed out that it was even party their fault) but I'm trying to paint an objective and unbiased picture here.

If there was no artificial demand in place for the PM2/Para 3, would this happen constantly? Based on the other Spyderco exclusive non PM2/Para3 drops, I doubt it.
Last edited by nerdlock on Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#109

Post by BG-ThatsMe »

nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:37 pm
Nobody's defending DLT here (at least I'm not, pointed out that it was even party their fault) but I'm trying to paint an objective and unbiased picture here.

Bottom line, some collectors decided that PM2/Para3 collecting is much more better than other Spyderco knives, created a group dedicated to it, built up the hype, more collectors took notice and wanted in, which in turn created demand, flippers/scalpers noticed, wanted a piece of the action too, found ways to outmuscle normal knife afis during drops, ecommerce websites couldn't handle the additional demand - bam. A perfect storm.

If there was no artificial demand in place for the PM2/Para 3, would this happen constantly? Based on the other Spyderco exclusive non PM2/Para3 drops, I doubt it.
Why do you think the demand was artificial?

Buyers are buyers. It doesn’t really matter who bought (or wanted to buy) the pm3’s today. The site once again could not handle the traffic.

The business failed and that’s a big problem that DLT needs to finally fix. If they want to get these huge paydays, I think the least they can do is to establish a platform that can support the traffic.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#110

Post by nerdlock »

BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 pm
nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:37 pm
Nobody's defending DLT here (at least I'm not, pointed out that it was even party their fault) but I'm trying to paint an objective and unbiased picture here.

Bottom line, some collectors decided that PM2/Para3 collecting is much more better than other Spyderco knives, created a group dedicated to it, built up the hype, more collectors took notice and wanted in, which in turn created demand, flippers/scalpers noticed, wanted a piece of the action too, found ways to outmuscle normal knife afis during drops, ecommerce websites couldn't handle the additional demand - bam. A perfect storm.

If there was no artificial demand in place for the PM2/Para 3, would this happen constantly? Based on the other Spyderco exclusive non PM2/Para3 drops, I doubt it.
Why do you think the demand was artificial?

Buyers are buyers. It doesn’t really matter who bought (or wanted to buy) the pm3’s today. The site once again could not handle the traffic.

The business failed and that’s a big problem that DLT needs to finally fix. If they want to get these huge paydays, I think the least they can do is to establish a platform that can support the traffic.

Look at whoever's buying these knives. Most of them are just collectors with the intent to sell these knives at a profit at some point in time later on. You'll find PM2's and Para 3's that these people sell for $200-upwards. The REC Para 3 doesn't even sell lower than $400 these days. The latest REC PM2's average price is $300 on those sites and the secondary market. I won't even talk about eBay.

Point is, people buy these in several copies, store them and take advantage of the influx of new collectors bitten by the PM2/Para 3 hype (also created by these people) and try to sell the knives at a profit to them. It's become a pissing contest of who's got the completest PM2/Para 3 collection, and sadly many new collectors are suckered in everyday.
Last edited by nerdlock on Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#111

Post by nerdlock »

edit - double post
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#112

Post by Oloung1 »

BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 pm
Why do you think the demand was artificial?

Buyers are buyers. It doesn’t really matter who bought (or wanted to buy) the pm3’s today. The site once again could not handle the traffic.

The business failed and that’s a big problem that DLT needs to finally fix. If they want to get these huge paydays, I think the least they can do is to establish a platform that can support the traffic.
On DLT's instagram there are "buyers" gloating that they were able to purchase and will be flipping both knives for x2 the price.

a) That doesn't read like a traditional "buyer" to me..
b) But if that qualifies as a "buyer" then DLT's business did not fail, as it functioned enough for at least flippers to make their purchase and nothing needs to be fixed.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#113

Post by BG-ThatsMe »

Oloung1 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:11 pm
BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 pm
Why do you think the demand was artificial?

Buyers are buyers. It doesn’t really matter who bought (or wanted to buy) the pm3’s today. The site once again could not handle the traffic.

The business failed and that’s a big problem that DLT needs to finally fix. If they want to get these huge paydays, I think the least they can do is to establish a platform that can support the traffic.
On DLT's instagram there are "buyers" gloating that they were able to purchase and will be flipping both knives for x2 the price.

a) That doesn't read like a traditional "buyer" to me..
b) But if that qualifies as a "buyer" then DLT's business did not fail, as it functioned enough for at least flippers to make their purchase and nothing needs to be fixed.
There’s no secret that people scoop these up to sell on ebay. So what if they gloat. That says more about the quality of those people than it says about anyone else. There are plenty of solutions to that issue, but that’s for another conversation.

A business that sells primarily on the internet had a full blown site shutdown (again) that prevented every body from making a purchase. That’s a significant failure.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#114

Post by BG-ThatsMe »

nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:58 pm
BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 pm
nerdlock wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:37 pm
Nobody's defending DLT here (at least I'm not, pointed out that it was even party their fault) but I'm trying to paint an objective and unbiased picture here.

Bottom line, some collectors decided that PM2/Para3 collecting is much more better than other Spyderco knives, created a group dedicated to it, built up the hype, more collectors took notice and wanted in, which in turn created demand, flippers/scalpers noticed, wanted a piece of the action too, found ways to outmuscle normal knife afis during drops, ecommerce websites couldn't handle the additional demand - bam. A perfect storm.

If there was no artificial demand in place for the PM2/Para 3, would this happen constantly? Based on the other Spyderco exclusive non PM2/Para3 drops, I doubt it.
Why do you think the demand was artificial?

Buyers are buyers. It doesn’t really matter who bought (or wanted to buy) the pm3’s today. The site once again could not handle the traffic.

The business failed and that’s a big problem that DLT needs to finally fix. If they want to get these huge paydays, I think the least they can do is to establish a platform that can support the traffic.

Look at whoever's buying these knives. Take a look at the FB groups dedicated to Spyderco and the PM2/Para 3 platform. Most of them are just collectors with the intent to sell these knives at a profit at some point in time later on. You'll find PM2's and Para 3's that these people sell for $200-upwards. The REC Para 3 doesn't even sell lower than $400 these days. The latest REC PM2's average price is $300 on those sites and the secondary market. I won't even talk about eBay.

Point is, people buy these in several copies, store them and take advantage of the influx of new collectors bitten by the PM2/Para 3 hype (also created by these people) and try to sell the knives at a profit to them. It's become a pissing contest of who's got the completest PM2/Para 3 collection, and sadly many new collectors are suckered in everyday.
That’s not artificial demand. That’s real demand. Buyers showed up with money to spend and the ones that were first in after the site opened up again got their knives.

If you are upset about flippers/collectors/double buyers taking the knives from “real users” then Spyderco or DLT need to increase supply by making more knives, or reduce demand by increasing prices.

Regardless of how you feel about who ended up getting a knife, the bottom line is that the process was a total goat rodeo.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#115

Post by Sharp Guy »

Can't believe you're all still ranting about this. I'm amazed by how quickly some of you turn on a well respected dealer. One week they're the hero and the next week people are moaning about how bad they are. What a shame!
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#116

Post by TkoK83Spy »

Sharp Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:52 pm
Can't believe you're all still ranting about this. I'm amazed by how quickly some of you turn on a well respected dealer. One week they're the hero and the next week people are moaning about how bad they are. What a shame!
I know right?? This is agonizing... not to mention this happens EVERY TIME a PM2 or Para 3 exclusive drops. Nothing new here fellas!! It happens and you'll get over it in 2 months when another PM2 or Para 3 comes along...it's just a knife!!! In a steel that's already been out there and G10 scales, it's nothing rare and exotic.

Guess what Pat, fine by me if people are going to swear off DLT...better chances for us next time something we desire comes along ;)
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#117

Post by prndltech »

Hey guys, just let the b**** fit be thrown in peace. It’s a stressful day for everyone :)
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#118

Post by nerdlock »

BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:30 pm

If you are upset about flippers/collectors/double buyers taking the knives from “real users” then Spyderco or DLT need to increase supply by making more knives, or reduce demand by increasing prices.

Regardless of how you feel about who ended up getting a knife, the bottom line is that the process was a total goat rodeo.

You don't understand how the process works do you? These knives were ordered in advance 2 years beforehand, that's how loaded Spyderco's factories are. Jason himself said so in his livestream earlier. DLT had no way to know the current demand 2 years later. What happened in the 2 years? PM2/Para3 collecting blew up all because of these collectors/flippers/scalpers.

As much as they want it, DLT couldn't just change their orders mid-production. What DLT has contracted in terms of numbers of units back then, that would be the same amount that Spyderco will deliver to DLT upon finishing production. Any additional units would have to be reordered again and be put into the back of the pipeline of Spyderco's factory queues. That's why I refuse to totally put blame on DLT or Spyderco for this.

BTW, full disclosure, I spent 30 tiring minutes tirelessly refreshing my browser until I got the page loaded. I got my order in. It was extremely stressful, much more even than the PM2 Cruwear drop. But I refuse to blame Jason and DLT for this when the root cause is still out there.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#119

Post by nerdlock »

Oloung1 wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:11 pm
BG-ThatsMe wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 8:48 pm
Why do you think the demand was artificial?

Buyers are buyers. It doesn’t really matter who bought (or wanted to buy) the pm3’s today. The site once again could not handle the traffic.

The business failed and that’s a big problem that DLT needs to finally fix. If they want to get these huge paydays, I think the least they can do is to establish a platform that can support the traffic.
On DLT's instagram there are "buyers" gloating that they were able to purchase and will be flipping both knives for x2 the price.

a) That doesn't read like a traditional "buyer" to me..
b) But if that qualifies as a "buyer" then DLT's business did not fail, as it functioned enough for at least flippers to make their purchase and nothing needs to be fixed.

Agreed! That's why I always say the demand is artificial.
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Re: DLT Cruwear purple Para3

#120

Post by nerdlock »

TkoK83Spy wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:00 pm
Sharp Guy wrote:
Tue Nov 03, 2020 9:52 pm
Can't believe you're all still ranting about this. I'm amazed by how quickly some of you turn on a well respected dealer. One week they're the hero and the next week people are moaning about how bad they are. What a shame!
I know right?? This is agonizing... not to mention this happens EVERY TIME a PM2 or Para 3 exclusive drops. Nothing new here fellas!! It happens and you'll get over it in 2 months when another PM2 or Para 3 comes along...it's just a knife!!! In a steel that's already been out there and G10 scales, it's nothing rare and exotic.

Guess what Pat, fine by me if people are going to swear off DLT...better chances for us next time something we desire comes along ;)

Agreed, hopefully less stress on the ecommerce servers of DLT next time for us! :D
8Cr13MoV:N690Co:VG10:S30V:S35VN:S45VN:Elmax:SPY27:H1:LC200N:4V:MagnaCut:CTS-XHP:204P:M390:20CV:Cru-Wear:Z-Wear:M4:Rex-45:10V:K390:15V:S90V:Z-Max:Maxamet
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