What steel balances attributes best?

[Albatross]

K390 hands down. I still can't believe how easily it sharpens, considering the edge retention it provides.

If stainless is necessary, then M390/204P/20CV are the most balanced overall, but S90V takes the cake for me. It's about as stainless as S30V, but has exceptional edge retention and is surprisingly easy to sharpen. S90V sharpens more like a non-stainless steel, and with a high degree of sharpness.

Since I know you also have REX45 knives (question also to all others who own both REX45 and K390)

- How does K390 compare to REX45 concerning both edge holding and "sharpenability" ?

I never tried K390, but am really impressed by REX45. In my use it seems to hold an edge longer than my HAP 40 blades (what could be expected, given that REX 45 is run a bit harder) while I have no problems to touch it up on the SM.
Is K390 even better?

K390 will hold an edge longer and takes about the same effort to sharpen as Rex45, but when it comes to reprofiling the edge, K390 is noticeably easier.

I have had more chipping on my K390 blades though. Nothing severe, just small damage, but still much less than most steels. It's no slouch, that's for sure, but there is a small difference between then in this area. For me though, REX45 is just unbelievable, as far as the abuse it can take at the edge.

According to Larrin, K390 cuts as long as steels like S110V and ZDP-189.

All things being equal, there should be no difference in corrosion resistance between M4, REX45, and K390, according to Larrin's data, and a statement he made on this forum about REX45 vs M4.

REX45 takes a very fine edge, but tends to feel smooth on the 3 finger test. K390 has a more aggressive feel, due to the difference in carbides between the two. K390 acts more like a saw, or a serrated blade, which makes it phenomenal for draw cuts, but for really hard use(edge abuse) and push cuts, REX45 is the best I've had.

Honestly, a case can be made for owning both steels, but I also think that neither of the two leaves the user wanting more.

[brancron]

Lately I have been more interested in toughness than edge retention, and have found that CPM Cruwear may be my current favorite steel. The edge retention is very good, though not extreme like some other steels, but the toughness is where it shines. I hope they do a Cruwear Endura!

[Larrin]

Larrin, I am pretty sure I got you wrong on this - ?:

- You found that on a 400 grit CBN stone it takes about the same time and number of passes (or howsoever one chooses to measure this) to bring a knife from a certain "degree of dull" to a certain "degree of sharp" (again, howsoever one defines "dull" and "sharp") regardless of the steel the blade is made of ?!?

Yes, for me it was the number of passes until I could clearly feel a burr on the other side. And the starting point was a tested CATRA blade which is very dull. 1095 and 15V were similar. In a blind test I'm not sure I could tell you which is which.

[JRinFL]

I guess I read this one wrong. I had assumed balanced meant the three common attribute of toughness, edge holding, and corrosion resistance. Re-reading the OP, I see the parameters are sharpening response and edge holding. As Larrin said above, with diamond or CBN stones, sharpening response should be the same across the board, so this will skew towards edge holding steels. I personally would not call any of those steels "balanced".

[Doc Dan]

I have diamond and CBN, but what if I didn't? A lot of these steels take an inordinate amount of effort to resharpen without them. I love, I mean love K390 in the one knife I have in it. It has never chipped or rolled and I have opened cans with it. It is simply a great steel. However, if I did not have good sharpening equipment, would I still choose it? That is why I said VG-10 seems to be the epitome of good balance between ease of sharpening and edge holding. BD1N is nice in this regard. S30V is not too terribly bad, either, but harder than the previous two. YMMV, of course.

With good, guided equipment and diamond stones nothing is out of the question, for me. However, I will say that even then, some steels just do not respond as well to sharpening as others. They take longer to get a sharp edge.

[Larrin]

I guess I read this one wrong. I had assumed balanced meant the three common attribute of toughness, edge holding, and corrosion resistance. Re-reading the OP, I see the parameters are sharpening response and edge holding. As Larrin said above, with diamond or CBN stones, sharpening response should be the same across the board, so this will skew towards edge holding steels. I personally would not call any of those steels "balanced".

I wouldn't say that using CBN automatically makes all steels behave the same in sharpening. Steels still have different levels of wear resistance. However, I could not tell the difference with the 400 grit stones. Perhaps at higher grit levels when sharpening differences would be more apparent.

[Larrin]

With good, guided equipment and diamond stones nothing is out of the question, for me. However, I will say that even then, some steels just do not respond as well to sharpening as others. They take longer to get a sharp edge.

For me the biggest difference was when deburring, which is not an issue of the steel itself. However, there may be some steels which have been given poor heat treatments in the past when it comes to good deburring behavior. For example, S110V has a very high recommended austenitizing temperature in its datasheet. Without proper cryogenic processing the steel could very well have excessive retained austenite which makes deburring more difficult.

[Holland]

My favorite balance for my needs have been M4 or Hap40 for non stainless and if I need stainless (rarely) I really enjoy M390

[Ez556]

On the less stainless side for dry climates, definitely CruWear! Humid/wet climates, maybe LC200N. As already stated though, S30V is found in so many production knives for a reason! That one could also take the cake right between the two I've already mentioned, so that just may mean it balances best.

[JuPaul]

Larrin, I am pretty sure I got you wrong on this - ?:

- You found that on a 400 grit CBN stone it takes about the same time and number of passes (or howsoever one chooses to measure this) to bring a knife from a certain "degree of dull" to a certain "degree of sharp" (again, howsoever one defines "dull" and "sharp") regardless of the steel the blade is made of ?!?

Yes, for me it was the number of passes until I could clearly feel a burr on the other side. And the starting point was a tested CATRA blade which is very dull. 1095 and 15V were similar. In a blind test I'm not sure I could tell you which is which.

Of course I believe your data is accurate, but it's really hard to wrap my brain around this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? I generally reprofile my edges to about 17dps the first time I sharpen a knife, and some of the harder steels like k390 feel like they take ages longer than, say, vg10. Of course I understand that I may have different starting places (an edge at 22dps vs an edge at 18dps, for example), but just the other day I reprofiled a BD1N para3 blade from ~20dps to ~17dps, and it took only minutes. I'm certain the same wasn't the case for my k390 pm2, and in this example the bd1n blade was absolutely more dull than the k390 blade. I'm not sure how to reconcile my experiences with your data...

[Hardbawl]

A month ago I would have voted for Cruwear. My Cruwear Native was [and is] a fantastic knife/ steel offering. Last month I got a Native Chief. I had to "settle" for CPM S30V steel. BUT along with my new Chief I bought a Sharp Maker. Using Sal's video instructions, I quickly overcame previous problems sharpening S30V. Scalpel sharpness can be maintained by having the Sharp Maker kiss the S30V [or Cruwear] blade for less than 5 minutes twice a week. Both steels make wonderful knives and are easy to keep super sharp.

[Larrin]

Larrin, I am pretty sure I got you wrong on this - ?:

- You found that on a 400 grit CBN stone it takes about the same time and number of passes (or howsoever one chooses to measure this) to bring a knife from a certain "degree of dull" to a certain "degree of sharp" (again, howsoever one defines "dull" and "sharp") regardless of the steel the blade is made of ?!?

Yes, for me it was the number of passes until I could clearly feel a burr on the other side. And the starting point was a tested CATRA blade which is very dull. 1095 and 15V were similar. In a blind test I'm not sure I could tell you which is which.

Of course I believe your data is accurate, but it's really hard to wrap my brain around this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? I generally reprofile my edges to about 17dps the first time I sharpen a knife, and some of the harder steels like k390 feel like they take ages longer than, say, vg10. Of course I understand that I may have different starting places (an edge at 22dps vs an edge at 18dps, for example), but just the other day I reprofiled a BD1N para3 blade from ~20dps to ~17dps, and it took only minutes. I'm certain the same wasn't the case for my k390 pm2, and in this example the bd1n blade was absolutely more dull than the k390 blade. I'm not sure how to reconcile my experiences with your data...

I wasn’t reprofiling so I can’t say if I would have observed the same behavior. Reprofiling involves the grinding away of significantly more material.

[JuPaul]

Larrin, I am pretty sure I got you wrong on this - ?:

- You found that on a 400 grit CBN stone it takes about the same time and number of passes (or howsoever one chooses to measure this) to bring a knife from a certain "degree of dull" to a certain "degree of sharp" (again, howsoever one defines "dull" and "sharp") regardless of the steel the blade is made of ?!?

Yes, for me it was the number of passes until I could clearly feel a burr on the other side. And the starting point was a tested CATRA blade which is very dull. 1095 and 15V were similar. In a blind test I'm not sure I could tell you which is which.

Of course I believe your data is accurate, but it's really hard to wrap my brain around this. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? I generally reprofile my edges to about 17dps the first time I sharpen a knife, and some of the harder steels like k390 feel like they take ages longer than, say, vg10. Of course I understand that I may have different starting places (an edge at 22dps vs an edge at 18dps, for example), but just the other day I reprofiled a BD1N para3 blade from ~20dps to ~17dps, and it took only minutes. I'm certain the same wasn't the case for my k390 pm2, and in this example the bd1n blade was absolutely more dull than the k390 blade. I'm not sure how to reconcile my experiences with your data...

I wasn’t reprofiling so I can’t say if I would have observed the same behavior. Reprofiling involves the grinding away of significantly more material.

For certain. But it's strange to me that similar disparities wouldn't also be observed with basic sharpening, albeit to a lesser degree.

[The Meat man]

I don't know...CBN is harder than any steel or carbide, so technically, I can see how you'd be removing the basically the same amount of material with each pass, regardless of the steel type.
And of course, Larrin is starting each knife from the same point of dullness, at the same edge angle.

[Wartstein]

I don't know...CBN is harder than any steel or carbide, so technically, I can see how you'd be removing the basically the same amount of material with each pass, regardless of the steel type.
And of course, Larrin is starting each knife from the same point of dullness, at the same edge angle.

Sure, but is it not true that every sharpening stone has to be harder than the steel you sharpen on it, as soon as actual removing of material (steel) happens?

So following your suggestion all steels should take about the same amount of time and effort to get sharp, regardless on what stone, plate or rod? (Which is just not the case...)

I mean, let's make an analogy to a file, harder than both hard wood and soft wood. Still, it will take longer to file a notch in hard wood than in soft wood, right?

[Larrin]

“Grindability” of steel is largely controlled by carbide volume, carbide size, and carbide hardness. More wear resistant steels are more difficult to grind. However, sharpening is not just grinding away material.

[The Meat man]

I don't know...CBN is harder than any steel or carbide, so technically, I can see how you'd be removing the basically the same amount of material with each pass, regardless of the steel type.
And of course, Larrin is starting each knife from the same point of dullness, at the same edge angle.

Sure, but is it not true that every sharpening stone has to be harder than the steel you sharpen on it, as soon as actual removing of material (steel) happens?

So following your suggestion all steels should take about the same amount of time and effort to get sharp, regardless on what stone, plate or rod? (Which is just not the case...)

I mean, let's make an analogy to a file, harder than both hard wood and soft wood. Still, it will take longer to file a notch in hard wood than in soft wood, right?

That's not quite what I meant.

There are differences in abrasive types, aggressions, and quality. These all will also make a difference in how sharpening goes.

Being that diamonds are at the top of the hardness chart, would that not "level" the field somewhat? A stone can only hold so much material in its microscopic pores. Sure if you use a lot of pressure, you're going to hog off more material; but all things being equal, why would the diamonds notice a difference between steel hardness 5 and steel hardness 6 when the diamonds themselves are hardness 10?

I'm saying that the difference in hardness between different steels/carbides is much less than the hardness difference between the hardest steel and diamonds or CBN.

That was my point. I'm not necessarily saying that's what's happening. It's just a way to understand maybe where Larrin is coming from.

I agree that in my personal experience, I do notice a difference in sharpenability between different steels: but that difference is much less when I'm using good quality diamond or CBN abrasives.

[dj moonbat]

I find that far, far—far!—more difficulty in sharpening arises from deburring than from the abrasion that raises the burr in the first place. Far!

[vivi]

I find that far, far—far!—more difficulty in sharpening arises from deburring than from the abrasion that raises the burr in the first place. Far!

I've always found steels hardened to higher RC's burr very little. ZDP189 was the one that really opened my eyes to this.

[jkurtz7]

I’m a big fan of VG-10, it’s popular in Japan for a reason. Easy to sharpen, takes a wicked edge, and holds it for a reasonable amount of time. I also really like 14c28n and I wish Spyderco would use it. I have one knife in BD1N but haven’t used it so
I don’t have an opinion on that steel yet.
I know lots of people really like PM steels, but for me they aren’t something I’m into.

Welcome to the forum! :)

Which knife in BD1N do you have?
And I hope you´ll use it soon and share your opinions on that steel! As said before, I personally was really surprised in a positive way... sharpens up very easy to a "scary" level (at least for my standards, not a master sharpener at all) and takes a lot longer to dull than I´d have expected...

Thanks for the welcome. The knife I have in BD1N is a Ken Onion Knife Works fisherman’s knife, meant for filleting fish, but it looks more like a chefs knife than anything. It was a limited edition, looked cool, so I bought one. It’s supposed to be hardened to 64 RC,
And it feels hard one the sharp maker rods. It does seem to take a very sharp edge, but all I’ve cut with it so far is phone book paper. I’ll have to use it in the kitchen so see how it performs in that environment.