Would vanax, lc200, etc be less brittle than white/blue at the same hardness? (More carbides means more brittleness?)
Can’t speak to Vanax, as I haven’t tried it, but from what I understand from Larrin and Chad/Xplorer, LC200N is challenging to get harder than around 59 HRC in production knives. Maximum attainable hardness might be around 61 HRC?
So the White and Blue steels are still going to be plenty tough in that hardness range, assuming a decent heat treat.
Of course they’re usually run harder than that in most laminated kitchen knives.
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2020 9:40 pm
by sal
new tack,
the steels like 52100, blue, white are capable of achieving a "sticky" edge or what Bill Bagwell always called a "hungry" edge. It does take some effort, experience and skill to achieve that level of sharpness, but these are the steels that can handle that (as Cliff Stamp calls) .1 micron.
sal
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:44 am
by Deadboxhero
What the high carbon simple steels lack in toughness and wear they make up for it in edge stability.
From a Heat treatment point of view these kinds of steels are like a manual transmission vs a automatic, things require more set up to avoid less desirable features and to chase desired structures in the microstructure if stability is most important.
Very enjoyable to geekout on geometry, heat treatment and sharpening with.
What the high carbon simple steels lack in toughness and wear they make up for it in edge stability.
From a Heat treatment point of view these kinds of steels are like a manual transmission vs a automatic, things require more set up to avoid less desirable features and to chase desired structures in the microstructure if stability is most important.
Very enjoyable to geekout on geometry, heat treatment and sharpening with.
Very cool, Shawn. :cool:
So what were you running that 26C3 knife at? HRC, edge angle and BTE?
I’ve seen you using 0.006” BTE thickness and 15dps with high carbide steels, but I’m wondering if you go more acute with these steels?
Do you use any cold treatment on these at all?
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 12:53 pm
by Deadboxhero
Cryogenic Treatment with liquid nitrogen is standard practice for me, so everything gets LN.
The 26c3 in the video was 0.010" bte with a ~15dps convex freehand edge at 65rc on 0.078" stock.
Can carbon go more acute? Difficult to say, I think the question is more accurate to ask "can the user handle more acute blades and edges?"
What the high carbon simple steels lack in toughness and wear they make up for it in edge stability.
From a Heat treatment point of view these kinds of steels are like a manual transmission vs a automatic, things require more set up to avoid less desirable features and to chase desired structures in the microstructure if stability is most important.
Very enjoyable to geekout on geometry, heat treatment and sharpening with.
Very cool, Shawn. :cool:
So what were you running that 26C3 knife at? HRC, edge angle and BTE?
I’ve seen you using 0.006” BTE thickness and 15dps with high carbide steels, but I’m wondering if you go more acute with these steels?
Do you use any cold treatment on these at all?
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 6:08 pm
by GarageBoy
I guess I should get a white/blue steel gyuto to play with? Prices vary so much. I guess I should get maybe the chosera 400/atoshi 2k?
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 8:31 pm
by Lucabrasi
This has all been said but I’ll try to contribute. Kitchen knives are what got me into knives. After running through dozens of gyutos what I have come to find is carbon steels are just what the best makers use in that world. Some great smiths work with SLD (Japanese D2), some do SG2/R2, ZDP or Hap40, the latter 2 being pretty rare. But for the most part, the most sought after smiths work in White (shirogami) 1 or 2, Blue (aogami) 1 or 2, and to a lesser extent blue super. I don’t know if it’s an unwillingness to learn to grind and heat treat higher alloyed steels or an understanding that their craft is mastering what has been passed down for generations, but the Shigefusas, Katos, Toyamas, Shirakis of the world tend to only work in white or blue steel.
As a user, they strop back to incredible levels of sharpness with ease, far exceeding the possibilities you tend to find in pm steels. They take an incredible edge to begin with and do it at incredibly thin angles, that tend to push the hardness side making the edges stable cutting on a high quality board. Nothing will cut like a white 1 blade hardened high with an edge polished on a high grit Japanese natural. At least for a while.
But yeah, they are all about precision. Bones, frozen food, just shouldn’t cut them with something high end. Keep a 30 dollar victorinox for that.
This has all been said but I’ll try to contribute. Kitchen knives are what got me into knives. After running through dozens of gyutos what I have come to find is carbon steels are just what the best makers use in that world. Some great smiths work with SLD (Japanese D2), some do SG2/R2, ZDP or Hap40, the latter 2 being pretty rare. But for the most part, the most sought after smiths work in White (shirogami) 1 or 2, Blue (aogami) 1 or 2, and to a lesser extent blue super. I don’t know if it’s an unwillingness to learn to grind and heat treat higher alloyed steels or an understanding that their craft is mastering what has been passed down for generations, but the Shigefusas, Katos, Toyamas, Shirakis of the world tend to only work in white or blue steel.
As a user, they strop back to incredible levels of sharpness with ease, far exceeding the possibilities you tend to find in pm steels. They take an incredible edge to begin with and do it at incredibly thin angles, that tend to push the hardness side making the edges stable cutting on a high quality board. Nothing will cut like a white 1 blade hardened high with an edge polished on a high grit Japanese natural. At least for a while.
But yeah, they are all about precision. Bones, frozen food, just shouldn’t cut them with something high end. Keep a 30 dollar victorinox for that.
This.
And yes, a Yanagiba by Kenichi Shiraki and a good Suita are still on my wishlist for years now...
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Sat Oct 17, 2020 10:39 pm
by Granoo Fink
To japanese natural grindstones: most of the famous mines in the Kyoto area are depleted. Nevertheless, these mines still stock large, unprocessed rocks, some of which are quarried more than one hundred years ago, waiting to be processed into finishing stones.
As I understand, the unique properties of these grindstones made of sedimentary rock of the Kyoto area provided at least one part of the basis for the evolution of Japanese edged tools and the cutting techniques arising, wood working and food preparation.
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:44 am
by Lucabrasi
I’ve found a natural edge keeps its scary sharp level a bit longer than off synthetics. Don’t have an explanation, just my observation. They also shave better for straight razors. There’s a quality to them that is hard to capture in text.
I have a pretty hard stone, a yaginoshima asagi, that can positively impact the performance of zdp and cts xhp, but once you get to steels with more vanadium, they really do nothing.
As for the simple carbons, I think most here would be surprised by the kind of edge retention you get with them in the kitchen. My Watanabe blue 2, reportedly hardened to around 65 hrc, seems to keeps its fine edge as long as my Kurosaki R2. I just never let my gyutos get to a working edge so I can’t really comment further.
I’ve been surprised how often I’ve had to sharpen my high end pm steels in pocket knives to keep the scary edge on them. But yes, once the edge settles into just usable sharpness they do last a very long time.
Re: Kitchen knife nerds- why basic carbons?
Posted: Sun Oct 18, 2020 10:47 am
by Abyss_Fish
SG2/R2 is glorious. Preforms like xhp run super hard, and yet even though it’s usually at 62-64 hrc it still rarely chips. Wonderful wonderful wonderful.
Edit: although to answer your initial question, I think it’s a tradition thing. One of my chefs swears by a few 40-60 year old french chefs knives. He doesn’t know what the steel is (I’d guess 52100) and doesn’t really care. It’s run hard, it’s easy to maintain, and as long as one of the line cooks doesn’t leave it in a sink, it’s indestructible. It’s a “they don’t make em like this anymore” thing, without a doubt.
Cryogenic Treatment with liquid nitrogen is standard practice for me, so everything gets LN.
The 26c3 in the video was 0.010" bte with a ~15dps convex freehand edge at 65rc on 0.078" stock.
Can carbon go more acute? Difficult to say, I think the question is more accurate to ask "can the user handle more acute blades and edges?"
Thanks Shawn, you’re doing some very impressive work. :cool:
Yeah, I think you’re right - it’s easy enough for the user to modify the edge grind and angle, as long as the primary flats are ground nice and thin like yours are. :cool:
All of my Japanese slicers (razers) are SG2/R2. Anything that gets near a bone such as a Honesuki is a good blue/white carbon. I also have a full rack of Traditional/Spyderco kitchen knives and a 1 1/2lb full tang carbon Cleaver. Just like EDC, I think it is good to have a full range of steels, sizes and shapes available to choose from when you are ready to use them.
Hi. I envy you. I only have two cleavers to choose from