Delica/Endura Gen 5 Thoughts

[weeping minora]

With all of the backlash at the lack of boye-dents on the newest offerings coming from the Seki plant (Police 4 LW, RockJumper) it has me thinking after receiving the RockJumper just a few days ago. Sal mentioned the lack of boye-dent due to a modification in the back-lock design for the model. One thing I thought initially from pictures was the added depth of the ricasso into the handle and after handling the model, I believe this will nullify lock-rock inherent to the lock type, especially after prolonged usage. I find my Delicas and Enduras have all needed adjustment after usage, when they eventually develop side-to-side play. Of course, this is still such a new investment to the design, only time will tell.

All this being said, does anyone think this is an indicator to closing in development of the 5th generation Delica/Endura? Being that the 4th generation is nearing 15 years old at this point, we've seen quite significant CQI and variations of the models in the blade end of the designs, though nothing so vast as to completely iterate a new overhaul in generational evolution. Does everyone feel the current 4th gen as the pinnacle of the models, or are there any changes to realistically warrant a 5th gen?

Personally I think this innovation in lock allowing the blade to reach all the way back to the handle, giving a maximal cutting edge to measured blade ratio as being a possible valid reason to start a re-innovation of the design. Also gives speculative reason that a new gen will in fact not have a choil added to the design :p. Exciting to think about; I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts!

[blueblur]

I’m very happy with the current 4th gen in these models. If there was a way to improve the lock like what is on the native and siren, I can see that as being a CQI update and not necessarily a new gen moniker. The improved lock would be welcomed but I’ve really grown to like just about everything else on these 4th gen models.

[elena86]

I would bring back the Endura 3 style handle. That's it. Delica is perfect as it is but it needs to be ground thinner behind the edge.

[spoonrobot]

One thing I thought initially from pictures was the added depth of the ricasso into the handle and after handling the model, I believe this will nullify lock-rock inherent to the lock type, especially after prolonged usage.

I'm not following here. The disassembly pictures seem to show a normal back lock with nothing different that would nullify potential lock-rock.

That said, I never bought an D3/E3 when they were around because I didn't really like the blade shape or overall aesthetic. I did buy a bunch of gen 1 Pacifics and Salt 1s and I've had quite a few D4/E4 models over the years. I don't know if I say the D4/E4 are perfect, but they're very very good. I liked the saber grind better than FFG because even though it didn't cut quite as well, the additional blade weight made the knife more satisfying to open/close. Regardless I'd be excited to see where they can find improvement in the design.

[Doc Dan]

I’m pretty happy with the Delica 4 as is.

If I could change one thing on the Endura it woukd be to give it a Military shaped handle.

[Sharp Guy]

I'm also perfectly happy with gen 4 design. I have several Delica 4s. A few have seen quite a bit of use. No side-to-side play in any of them. One does have a tiny amount of vertical play though but I have to really lean on it to feel it. Maybe the Endura is different due to the larger blade?

[Oloung1]

Personally I think this innovation in lock allowing the blade to reach all the way back to the handle, giving a maximal cutting edge to measured blade ratio as being a possible valid reason to start a re-innovation of the design. Also gives speculative reason that a new gen will in fact not have a choil added to the design :p. Exciting to think about; I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts!

I’m very happy with the current 4th gen in these models. If there was a way to improve the lock like what is on the native and siren, I can see that as being a CQI update and not necessarily a new gen moniker. The improved lock would be welcomed but I’ve really grown to like just about everything else on these 4th gen models.

I'm a recent (new) Delica4 user but have only seen some exploded pics of the Rockjumper and Native5 backlocks by themselves. I see a few places mentioned online that the new iterations are improvements but I cannot tell by the pics where. What are the main differences to the changes compared to the gen4 backlocks?

[phaust]

I too love them as they are. I really like the new PS2 handle though with no liners and wouldn't mind if they switch over to that.

[blueblur]

Personally I think this innovation in lock allowing the blade to reach all the way back to the handle, giving a maximal cutting edge to measured blade ratio as being a possible valid reason to start a re-innovation of the design. Also gives speculative reason that a new gen will in fact not have a choil added to the design :p. Exciting to think about; I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts!

I’m very happy with the current 4th gen in these models. If there was a way to improve the lock like what is on the native and siren, I can see that as being a CQI update and not necessarily a new gen moniker. The improved lock would be welcomed but I’ve really grown to like just about everything else on these 4th gen models.

I'm a recent (new) Delica4 user but have only seen some exploded pics of the Rockjumper and Native5 backlocks by themselves. I see a few places mentioned online that the new iterations are improvements but I cannot tell by the pics where. What are the main differences to the changes compared to the gen4 backlocks?

I’d be lying if I tried to explain technically what is different but the Golden produced back locks in my experience are smoother and don’t experience some of the occasional blade play when locked like the seki models. I still love my enduras Delicas and pacific salts though.

If you have the opportunity to handle a siren you’ll know what I’m referring to right away. The execution of that back lock is pure bliss.

[JRinFL]

My Siren is very smooth, but the lock spring is too soft and lacking a Boye dent makes it easy to partially engage in several grips. Seki locks have never done that for me.
I’m guessing most will either want to stick with the Gen 4 as is, with the remainder wanting a more neutral Endura or RJ type handle. Me? I love the Gen 3, very, very much.

[Bemo]

Two words: Wire Clip. If it's good enough for the LW para 3 and the LW Manix, it would be more than adequate for the Delica and really ALL the FRN models (would love it on the Native 5 LW...).

[weeping minora]

One thing I thought initially from pictures was the added depth of the ricasso into the handle and after handling the model, I believe this will nullify lock-rock inherent to the lock type, especially after prolonged usage.

I'm not following here. The disassembly pictures seem to show a normal back lock with nothing different that would nullify potential lock-rock.

That said, I never bought an D3/E3 when they were around because I didn't really like the blade shape or overall aesthetic. I did buy a bunch of gen 1 Pacifics and Salt 1s and I've had quite a few D4/E4 models over the years. I don't know if I say the D4/E4 are perfect, but they're very very good. I liked the saber grind better than FFG because even though it didn't cut quite as well, the additional blade weight made the knife more satisfying to open/close. Regardless I'd be excited to see where they can find improvement in the design.

I've not seen, nor am I referencing disassembly pictures, but I'll explain in further depth.

When you look at how small the ricasso/kick is on the RockJumper, in order to facilitate one handed closing, a la Delica, that kick has been seated a bit deeper into the handle, being further sandwiched between the two scales and has a much wider contact width at the conjunction between the scales versus the D4.

I'm not specifically stating a difference in the lock, rather the design placement of added mass between the scales via the widened kick, along with a bit extra seated depth between the scales; which to my mind would add more rigidity, whether intentional, or not, this could be a fallout result in creating one handed usage, or a happy accident. Definitely not enough mileage on this design yet to prove my theory right, or wrong; however speaking from having all of my D4/E4 models develop some sort of side-to-side blade play after extended usage, this looks to be an improvement, of course IMO. Time will tell.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

[weeping minora]

Personally I think this innovation in lock allowing the blade to reach all the way back to the handle, giving a maximal cutting edge to measured blade ratio as being a possible valid reason to start a re-innovation of the design. Also gives speculative reason that a new gen will in fact not have a choil added to the design :p. Exciting to think about; I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts!

I’m very happy with the current 4th gen in these models. If there was a way to improve the lock like what is on the native and siren, I can see that as being a CQI update and not necessarily a new gen moniker. The improved lock would be welcomed but I’ve really grown to like just about everything else on these 4th gen models.

I'm a recent (new) Delica4 user but have only seen some exploded pics of the Rockjumper and Native5 backlocks by themselves. I see a few places mentioned online that the new iterations are improvements but I cannot tell by the pics where. What are the main differences to the changes compared to the gen4 backlocks?

My point in quotation refers to the maximized edge length within the overall blade length, which is attributed to an evolution in the design of the lock. I was not critiquing the actual lock itself as compared to the Gen 4 models, per se, but rather the overall design. As the new design hasn't even been dropped a full month yet, much usage is needed to prove any improvement in lock strength, if at all.

If you take the Delica 4 as an example, the overall blade length is listed at 2.875", while the actual cutting edge measures a mere 2.56". Roughly 5/16" of that measured blade is unusable. Flip over to the RockJumper and the listed blade length is coming in at 3.07", with a cutting edge of 2.83", reducing that unused bit of blade to less than half that of the Delica, at approximately 1/8" of unsharpened blade. Please note that I took the measurements of the blades direct from widely available sources via a Spyderco distributor website, in this case, Blade HQ and my differential measurements were done with a standard 16th inch measuring tape, measuring the minimum distance from sharpened heel to handle, rather than actual maximum difference between the two points of referenced measurements.

What this offers is a huge step in evolving the efficacy of the lock-back design, all while still emphasizing that one-handed operational model and offers a much leaner blade-to-handle ratio, with cutting edge nearly maximized to its full potential. With the lock-back being my favorite design and lock type, this is very exciting. This also allows a much more compact maximum for places with stringent knife length restrictions within well-loved platforms available from Spyderco, mainly through the Seki factory.

I will state that I believe due to this new design, the lock will in fact be more sturdy than the Gen 4 models, as a result of the new placement of the ricasso/kick, which has not only been widened at the contact point between the scales, but seated deeper as well to facilitate that one-handed safe operation that was being transferred from the actual Gen 4 designs.

[Oloung1]

I’d be lying if I tried to explain technically what is different but the Golden produced back locks in my experience are smoother and don’t experience some of the occasional blade play when locked like the seki models. I still love my enduras Delicas and pacific salts though.

If you have the opportunity to handle a siren you’ll know what I’m referring to right away. The execution of that back lock is pure bliss.

Fair enough, I have read long time D4/E4 users mention vertical place after extended use.
I believe that last line is what they call "enabling" :D

My Siren is very smooth, but the lock spring is too soft and lacking a Boye dent makes it easy to partially engage in several grips. Seki locks have never done that for me.
I’m guessing most will either want to stick with the Gen 4 as is, with the remainder wanting a more neutral Endura or RJ type handle. Me? I love the Gen 3, very, very much.

I saw the other posts related to the Boye dent and remember your feedback. I'm also on Team Dent. Mostly for the indexing and the rest for ergos, don't care about aesthetics. Added safety is a plus, though I see this is debatable on the D4/E4 chassis.

[Oloung1]

My point in quotation refers to the maximized edge length within the overall blade length, which is attributed to an evolution in the design of the lock. I was not critiquing the actual lock itself as compared to the Gen 4 models, per se, but rather the overall design. As the new design hasn't even been dropped a full month yet, much usage is needed to prove any improvement in lock strength, if at all.

If you take the Delica 4 as an example, the overall blade length is listed at 2.875", while the actual cutting edge measures a mere 2.56". Roughly 5/16" of that measured blade is unusable. Flip over to the RockJumper and the listed blade length is coming in at 3.07", with a cutting edge of 2.83", reducing that unused bit of blade to less than half that of the Delica, at approximately 1/8" of unsharpened blade. Please note that I took the measurements of the blades direct from widely available sources via a Spyderco distributor website, in this case, Blade HQ and my differential measurements were done with a standard 16th inch measuring tape, measuring the minimum distance from sharpened heel to handle, rather than actual maximum difference between the two points of referenced measurements.

What this offers is a huge step in evolving the efficacy of the lock-back design, all while still emphasizing that one-handed operational model and offers a much leaner blade-to-handle ratio, with cutting edge nearly maximized to its full potential. With the lock-back being my favorite design and lock type, this is very exciting. This also allows a much more compact maximum for places with stringent knife length restrictions within well-loved platforms available from Spyderco, mainly through the Seki factory.

I will state that I believe due to this new design, the lock will in fact be more sturdy than the Gen 4 models, as a result of the new placement of the ricasso/kick, which has not only been widened at the contact point between the scales, but seated deeper as well to facilitate that one-handed safe operation that was being transferred from the actual Gen 4 designs.

Thanks for clarifying your perspective and I see the blade to handle ratio as a definite improvement to the overall lockback chassis with the RockJumper. The overall blade length vs cutting edge length is also an important point on restrictions. The more usable edge in the same package, the better.

I am curious in the long run how the widened kick & change in positioning will wear in and reduce lock rock. That would be an added bonus.

Really good points and I appreciate the time to explain these in detail as for first time, I can visualize the differences!

[vivi]

Personally I think this innovation in lock allowing the blade to reach all the way back to the handle, giving a maximal cutting edge to measured blade ratio as being a possible valid reason to start a re-innovation of the design. Also gives speculative reason that a new gen will in fact not have a choil added to the design :p. Exciting to think about; I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts!

I’m very happy with the current 4th gen in these models. If there was a way to improve the lock like what is on the native and siren, I can see that as being a CQI update and not necessarily a new gen moniker. The improved lock would be welcomed but I’ve really grown to like just about everything else on these 4th gen models.

I'm a recent (new) Delica4 user but have only seen some exploded pics of the Rockjumper and Native5 backlocks by themselves. I see a few places mentioned online that the new iterations are improvements but I cannot tell by the pics where. What are the main differences to the changes compared to the gen4 backlocks?

I’d be lying if I tried to explain technically what is different but the Golden produced back locks in my experience are smoother and don’t experience some of the occasional blade play when locked like the seki models. I still love my enduras Delicas and pacific salts though.

If you have the opportunity to handle a siren you’ll know what I’m referring to right away. The execution of that back lock is pure bliss.

I've been carrying a Siren every day at work, and carried it a lot during the summer. While I love mine and think the backlock is fun to unlock with my index finger and swing shut, it does not exhibit zero play.

I've never owned a Spyderco lockback that showed zero vertical play. Every one I have owned wiggles a little up and down when pushing the cutting edge into a cutting board, for example. This includes US, Japanese and Chinese made lockbacks.

It doesn't bother me as the locks are perfectly safe, but I wouldn't expect zero play from them.

[spoonrobot]

One thing I thought initially from pictures was the added depth of the ricasso into the handle and after handling the model, I believe this will nullify lock-rock inherent to the lock type, especially after prolonged usage.

I'm not following here. The disassembly pictures seem to show a normal back lock with nothing different that would nullify potential lock-rock.

That said, I never bought an D3/E3 when they were around because I didn't really like the blade shape or overall aesthetic. I did buy a bunch of gen 1 Pacifics and Salt 1s and I've had quite a few D4/E4 models over the years. I don't know if I say the D4/E4 are perfect, but they're very very good. I liked the saber grind better than FFG because even though it didn't cut quite as well, the additional blade weight made the knife more satisfying to open/close. Regardless I'd be excited to see where they can find improvement in the design.

I've not seen, nor am I referencing disassembly pictures, but I'll explain in further depth.

When you look at how small the ricasso/kick is on the RockJumper, in order to facilitate one handed closing, a la Delica, that kick has been seated a bit deeper into the handle, being further sandwiched between the two scales and has a much wider contact width at the conjunction between the scales versus the D4.

I'm not specifically stating a difference in the lock, rather the design placement of added mass between the scales via the widened kick, along with a bit extra seated depth between the scales; which to my mind would add more rigidity, whether intentional, or not, this could be a fallout result in creating one handed usage, or a happy accident. Definitely not enough mileage on this design yet to prove my theory right, or wrong; however speaking from having all of my D4/E4 models develop some sort of side-to-side blade play after extended usage, this looks to be an improvement, of course IMO. Time will tell.

Hope this clears things up a bit.

That may be where the confusion is coming from. Internally, the RJ and E4/D4 are not much different. I do not believe the RJ design will be inherently better at preventing lock-rock and/or side-to-side play. The former is a function of the lock geometry designed for maximum engagement and to shed debris that may prevent lockup while maintaining integrity as the facing surfaces wear. The latter is a function of the bearing surface preload and was mainly solved by moving to a screw and barrel pivot. Almost all of the non-triad-lock lockbacks I've owned have showed some play, either inherent in the design that stays consistent over many thousands of open close cycles or slowly develops as the knife is used.

RJ

E4 Initial

E4 CQI FFG

FRN Stretch

[JRinFL]

My Siren is very smooth, but the lock spring is too soft and lacking a Boye dent makes it easy to partially engage in several grips. Seki locks have never done that for me.
I’m guessing most will either want to stick with the Gen 4 as is, with the remainder wanting a more neutral Endura or RJ type handle. Me? I love the Gen 3, very, very much.

Quoting myself. :o

I meant to say “more neutral Endela or RJ type handle.”

[VooDooChild]

For the love of god get rid of the points on the handle. Just change the handle a little, everything else is perfect.

The endura would be my perfect knife, and I would have a bunch of versions of it, but its handle just doesnt work for me.

I like everything else. Size, blade shape, blade grind options, steel options, pe,se,ce, handle material options, liners (I like those too), 4 way spoon clip, no choil but has plenty of kick. Its so good, but my hand doesnt agree.

[vivi]

For the love of god get rid of the points on the handle. Just change the handle a little, everything else is perfect.

The endura would be my perfect knife, and I would have a bunch of versions of it, but its handle just doesnt work for me.

I like everything else. Size, blade shape, blade grind options, steel options, pe,se,ce, handle material options, liners (I like those too), 4 way spoon clip, no choil but has plenty of kick. Its so good, but my hand doesnt agree.

So you want something like an Endura sized rockjumper?

I'm lucky. I felt the same way about the Endura 4 as you. I kept looking at the Pacific Salt 2 thinking how it was an upgrade in many ways over the Pacific 1. Decided to order one and give the E4 style handle another shot, and for some reason it clicked with me that second time. Maybe try handling one next time you're at a knife shop and see if you can make it work for you. I was one of the most critical people here regarding that handle and I'm a convert now.

That being said I think rounding the points is the way forward. It lets a wider variety of hand sizes adapt to the ergonomics. The Endela, Police 4 and Lil Temp 3 have proved it.