Wildland Firefighters Knife

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sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#81

Post by sal »

Hi Fireman,

As long as we're having this discussion, we should continue. With all due respect, I do not consider: cost or weight an acceptable reason to die. Not having it with you is not having properly prepared. The 6 P's (Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance) is especially significant in your line of work.

The Hotshots that died in Arizona really got to Gail and me. Why did they have to die? They donned their rescu-e suits quickly enough, so it was the "tool" ( rescue suit) that failed. Did it fail because they had not done enough testing or improper testing? Did they fail because they cut corners in construction (cost), or made them too light to be effective (weight)?

Somebody made a bad call in the creation of their equipment, in my humble opinion.

I'll be happy to work with you on the creation of the best knife for the job. I'd even be happy to work with you on a light strong wire cutter of serving the need. Know up front that I will not sacrifice performance for cost. :)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Talkin' Story": When we were in the development stage of the small Rescue, I decided that the hole opener was too small on the design and enlarged the hole. The enlarged hole came into the grind line, which caused me concerned, so I raised the hole creating a larger hump. The Maker enlarged the hole, but did not raise it. So the hole came into the grind line on the first shipment of 1200 pcs. We broke the blade, which did not meet with my satisfaction. That night, I had a dream that a Fire fighter was running into a burning building. He had to cut his way through some difficult material. He used his small Rescue which broke and cut him. Not good situation.

The next day we boxed up the entire shipment, concreted it and took it to the dump. Back to the drawing board and discussion with the maker.

sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#82

Post by sal »

Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 12:42 pm
Hi Sal. Can you send me an email or confirm your email for me? I sent them a few days ago but will gladly do it again. I’ll send you a PM using this forum.
Hi Fireman,

I sent you some email addresses, but it's through the forum so I don't know your email address. sglesser@spyderco.com should get your there. I get 100 to 200 emails per day. Helps f know your email address so I know what to look for in the Spam?

sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#83

Post by Fireman »

Hi Sal
Thank you for your patience with the communication problem. I will re send the emails that I sent. Technology is a blessing and a curse am I right? I did not get any PMs yet but I will keep working on it and will even mail it in as well. I know you are a busy man and appreciate the time, money and effort that you do do help support people like me and making sure we have the best tools possible. I agree, I do not want to compromise my safety because that means not coming home and that is not an option. Right now a lot of people carry multi tools that are sub par for that job and I have only seen one wildland firefighter carry a pair of dykes or side cutters for the specific purpose of getting through barbed wire. Each individual Firefighter decides what they will carry beyond the required items. Some people carry more than others choosing light weight and nimble being able to run faster for safety over carrying more items and being more prepared for tasks but not being as light or nimble. I, being a larger person carry more while some of the skinny or smaller guys only carry what they absolutely have to to maximize their advantage. The multi tool I carry right now has failed on me because of the carbide inserts cracked and we would not want anyone to rely on something that can fail when they need it like the fire shelters you mentioned. I could go on for a while about the shelters, but I’ll try to stay focused as I have a rambling tendency lol. I will be excited to talk with you more about wildland wire cutters. Again, I can’t thank you enough for all that you do for those who commit their lives in the service of others.
Last edited by Fireman on Mon Oct 19, 2020 12:32 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#84

Post by steelcity16 »

sal wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 1:56 pm

The next day we boxed up the entire shipment, concreted it and took it to the dump. Back to the drawing board and discussion with the maker.

sal

Where is this dump again?? :eek:

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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#85

Post by BLUETYPEII »

Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 pm

Did you have a specific lock in mind?

Well after half the day fooling around with a drawing and a cardboard prototype there is just no way to employ a wire cutter in the handle near the pivot like I was planning. The tip of the blade would have to come out of the handle and that would just not be safe. You could take a nice chunk out of your hand.

What about a separate wire cutter opposite the blade?
Last edited by BLUETYPEII on Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#86

Post by Fireman »

BLUETYPEII wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 pm

Did you have a specific lock in mind?

I was thinking a handle and lock similar to the Military
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#87

Post by steelcity16 »

Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:31 pm
BLUETYPEII wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 pm

Did you have a specific lock in mind?

I was thinking a handle and lock similar to the Military

Good thinking. I don't really know the first thing about firefighting, but I would probably pick something like an H1 SE Military XL Salt, with maybe a slightly larger Spydiehole to assist in gloved opening. The Military is my go-to for winter outdoors work in gloves, and I have always wished for an H1 SE version because I use my H1 SE Pacific Salt outdoors the rest of the year in non-glove use. I believe Sal has even said himself that the Military liner lock was designed for ease of gloved opening/closing.

That brings up a interesting side thought as well. It will be a backlock, but an H1 SE Salt version of the upcoming Straight Spine Stretch XL would also make a heck of a beastly outdoor knife!
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#88

Post by BLUETYPEII »

Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:31 pm
BLUETYPEII wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 pm

Did you have a specific lock in mind?

I was thinking a handle and lock similar to the Military
OK since the first idea didn’t work out, here is plan B.
A559456F-8D1E-4C62-A205-181E22D30A80.jpeg
898CF43D-FEAB-4C52-A51E-605567282B42.jpeg
A simple cutter with a handle that is almost hidden in the spine With a hinge like a slip joint on a UKPK.

There would be a small notch in the handle to correspond to the blade.

As far as the blade, I like the idea of a blade with a spine like the rescue.

Not a knife maker just my $00.02
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#89

Post by sal »

Hi Bluetype,

And a good $00.02 it is. With the information provided so far, that's where I was going. A bit of an engineering nightmare, but, IMHO, possible.

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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#90

Post by Fireman »

Hi Sal. Good news! I got your email and replied with the pics and text. Did you get my reply?
BLUETYPEII, That is one of the possible ideas I had thought of although my thoughts led me to a couple other directions, one being a a notch on the other end that would line up when closed but when you squeezed it it would cut the wire requiring another piece of metal in the handle or a specialized frame/liner that would run against to the knife blade by the pivot to be less complicated. I gravitated to the notch for less complexity and a couple other cool reasons but am open to what works best even if it is a separate tool. The good thing is that we have the passion, talent and the best team possible to make this happen.

Happy days!
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#91

Post by Menipo »

Kissaki wrote:
Fri Oct 16, 2020 10:44 pm

I can't remember anyone who didn't have a knife, especially a multi-tool. In working with different crews, there was a fairly small number of blade savvy guys and gals. I recall seeing a whole lot of lower-end Bucks, Schrades, Gerbers and Leathermans. I knew more than one Hotshot who packed a CRKT K.I.S.S. Inexpensive and easily replaced if lost, lightweight, lanyard hole, and the grind allowed it to be sharpened with a flat file; which were usually around for sharpening chainsaws and other tools. I think it's important to recognize that most wildland firefighters are seasonal, with a significant number of them college students. Price point is a big deal. I carried a Rescue Jr. in my flightsuit, a Leatherman Supertool on my belt, and a dummy-corded PE Endura in my radio harness or line gear. Definitely not high-end, but a lot of people thought I was nuts for having such "expensive" knives.

K

I'm following this thread with great interest. As I see how the idea has been progressing and evolving, I guess that the outcome could be close to a LC200N sheepsfoot Millie with a wire cutter device (maybe a notch in the back of the handle and an interior mobile piece of a very hard sharpened steel operated with a lever -a bit of an engineering nightmare, as per Sal's words).

I have no doubt that Sal will come up with the solution for the wire cutter additional device (he has sufficiently proven that his design mastery is beyond doubt) but I was asking myself if that type of device is easy to operate with gloves in a stress situation (I have no firefighting experience at all but have worked with gloves under heavy stress). In addition, considering that the present Millies are in the range of $275-$300, a Wildland Firefighters (WF) LC200N Military (with that additional wire cutter) would be in the range of ....$350? For around 1/3 of that price a seasonal WF might carry a multi-tool not designed just for cutting wire but almost (say a Leatherman Super Tool 300 Heavy-Duty Multi-Tool) and a Byrd Cara Cara Rescue 2 4" SE) or for around 1/2 of that price the Leatherman (it is just an example, I am not advocating for that specific brand/model) and a Spyderco Assist Rescue 3-11/16" VG10.

If that WF LC200N Military is finally manufactured, I (who am supposed to never form part of a WF brigade) will get one FOR SURE for my collection (as, I am sure, many of the forumites will do). But I do not know if it will be something affordable for the vast majority of those heroes for whom having this tool could mean in certain extreme cases the difference between life and death :(
Si vis pacem para bellum ;)
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#92

Post by Fireman »

Menipo
We share the same concerns. The complications and extra cost led me to the notch wire breaker conclusion but testing will iron out if that can be a function of the knife or a separate tool. I can see this knife being a great part of anyone’s collection or a working knife that can be useful for many people’s needs but especially those in extreme environments or just those who have the highest standards of a performance knife. I and
many others take pride in a tool that can out perform any need that they would require of it. I see the wisdom and beauty in “form ever following function” (Lois Sullivan) and am excited to see where that leads.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#93

Post by carrot »

My knife hobby has nothing to do with survival or life and death, but I want to just give my thanks for Sal's commitment to reliable high performance tools that must not fail under stressful situations.

I plan to buy one of these out of interest and for my meager BOB, just to show my support for the project.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#94

Post by Menipo »

Fireman,

Till I read Kissaki's post I was assuming that WF in the US are all professional firefighters (PFF). On that basis, as a $300 Autonomy was developed by Spyderco to suit the needs of the USCG rescue swimmers, a $300+ special knife developed for Wildland PFF made full sense to me. However, if a signficant number of the WF are seasonal firefighters, WF seems to me to be quite similar to our Brigadas Forestales, which are made up of a small stable core of PFF who command seasonal groups of college students, unemployed people and young farmers and ranchers living in the areas surrounding the wild forests who receive a modest salary and see their work more as a contribution to protect wildlife. For the vast majority of them, any existing Military (i.e. a Military in production, lacking any wire cutting -or other additional- feature) is already off (financial) limits.

Therefore, a Spyderco WLI (WildLand Inferno)* developed on the basis of a Military/G-10/high-end steel platform will most probably become just a collector's piece. IMHO it could become the EDC of the WF brigades only if its price is afordable for the vast majority of those who are supposed to need/use it in real life. That goal could be reached by using a completely different platform: the Resilience (only the blade shape would need to be modified to become sheepsfoot, as it already has PE, G-10 handles and liner lock) or even the ClipiTool Rescue (a little bit smaller but with a sheepsfoot SE blade which would only need to be changed to PE). Even with the added wire cutter (if that is possible and the outcome is an useful tool, not an ornament) and considering the present price of the Resilience and the ClipiTool, I tend to believe that the cost of a knife based on any of those two could be below $100 (or a little above in the worst case).

There is, obviously, a trade off: the steel (8Cr13MoV). It is a budget steel but this doesn't mean that it is a bad steel. The ClipiTool Rescue, "is optimized for the needs of first responders" (the Spyderco catalogue says), so many in the front line rely on blades made of this steel daily.

In any case, if Sal prefers, for whatever reason, to go for the expensive avenue, I would be more than happy (remember that I have already pre-ordered one in my previous post).

Just my 1.50 cents ;)

* Sal, please tell Peter Jhones to send me for execution a Deed of free Assignment of the copyright on that name in your favor. :cool:
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#95

Post by Fireman »

Menipo, There are all kinds of Wildland firefighters. A lot of local and county fire departments have type 3 off road capable engines and we all work together. State and federal is a mix of full time professional firefighters and seasonal firefighters who work up to 9 months of the year but can work more hours than a regular 9-5 job all added up. In California, about 2/3rds of the force are seasonal and don’t make as much as local govt firefighter who can make up to double what a wildland firefighter can make. I guess what I am saying is that there is quite the range of pay even though we all assume the same risks.
PS
The name I had in mind was the “Wildfire” but I can see several different models along the theme and that could need a few names.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#96

Post by bobnikon »

What if the wire cutter was integrated into the handle with a replaceable tool steel cutting edge? then it could be independent from the working blade and replace it when it gets worn, dull, or rusted?

For such a great idea I will take serial number 004. I figure fireman should get 001, Sal 002, somebody probably deserves 003 more than me.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#97

Post by bobnikon »

double post... sorry
Last edited by bobnikon on Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#98

Post by bobnikon »

losing my mind
Last edited by bobnikon on Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#99

Post by bobnikon »

triple post... impressive
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#100

Post by bobnikon »

that is neat. I was thinking something more like a strap cutter, less moving parts. but if that idea could be engineered, it would certainly be cool.

Is there a standard (or maximum) size for the wire typically encountered in the wild? I would presume fencing guage?
BLUETYPEII wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 8:42 pm
Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 6:31 pm
BLUETYPEII wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 4:08 pm
Fireman wrote:
Sun Oct 18, 2020 3:11 pm

Did you have a specific lock in mind?

I was thinking a handle and lock similar to the Military
OK since the first idea didn’t work out, here is plan B.

A559456F-8D1E-4C62-A205-181E22D30A80.jpeg898CF43D-FEAB-4C52-A51E-605567282B42.jpeg

A simple cutter with a handle that is almost hidden in the spine With a hinge like a slip joint on a UKPK.

There would be a small notch in the handle to correspond to the blade.

As far as the blade, I like the idea of a blade with a spine like the rescue.

Not a knife maker just my $00.02
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