Wildland Firefighters Knife

[Fireman]

I have been kicking around this idea for a while and have the design, specs and material specification parameters together, question is, do you think Spyderco would be interested in producing such a knife? I see the knives that a lot of Wildland Firefighters use and as a knife and steel nerd I cant help but be critical of most of the knives that I see and try to help them get a new and better knife that is better suited. Spyderco has been one of my favorites to recommend for quality and materials but there are some things that I would like to see in a purpose built knife for the dynamic and varied demands that Wildland Firefighters encounter. I like that Spyderco has been embracing LC200N knife steel and I have been using that steel AKA Cronidur 30 in my chef knife for 10 years now with only praise for that steel and think it is ideal for the task to deal with the hot and wet and sometimes corrosive things that we get exposed to.

[carrot]

While I can't speak for Sal & Eric, Spyderco is often interested in making knives for a good purpose.

In the past, people have shared their designs on the forum, but Sal has advised them not to share them publicly to protect both inventor and Spyderco from copycats.

I am sure someone more helpful than me will chime in shortly.

I think the rest of us forumites would be interested to know what kinds of needs make a good wildland firefighter knife.

[driftingfir]

The new Pacific salt 2 in lc200n may be of interest to you

[Evil D]

I would absolutely choose a Jumpmaster 2. There's really no reason to worry about blade length in that line of work and a folder is just fine motor skills you may not have in an emergency. It's rust proof and stupid tough, great for situations where you can't worry about maintenance and you're likely in the worst environmental conditions possible.

[Doc Dan]

The Jumpmaster 2 or the Aqua Salt would be good choices. Perhaps Spyderco would make a run for you in a bright orange or red handle color.

[Dazen]

I concur with the Jumpmaster or the Pac Salt LC200N if you need a folder. You can also wait for the Enuff in LC200N that is rumored to come in green FRN. There is also other Enuff models, thinner and longer, rumored as well.

[Wartstein]

Welcome to the forum, fireman! :)

I'd be interested in how your personal perfect firefighter knife would roughly look like, if you don't mind to share

[sal]

Hi Fireman,

Welcome to our forum.

For ideas or designs, the best path is to contact Peter Jhones ( Peterj@spyderco.com ). He handles R&D and Legal and he can get you started in the process for your and our protection.

sal

[Fireman]

Thank you for the replies
I will formulate a response for this forum and I will get ahold of Peter. Thank you Sal. Right now I am on toddler duty while recovering from a hernia surgery so I have some time to initiate this. The last few weeks here on the fires have been quite historic in a horrible way and this will be a great way to participate while I am laid up.

[Fireman]

Thinking of some of the more extreme circumstances that we use knives for have formed my idea of an ideal purpose driven pocket knife. One extreme that thankfully has not needed to be done was a Heletack Firefighter at my station (we have a Heletack crew and two engines to fight from above and on the ground) kept a Spyderco Autonomy on him in case he had to cut through the rescue cable from the copter :eek: For those not familiar with Wildland firefighters, we are Wildland fire focused but we still do things like medical aid calls, traffic collisions and structure fires as well. Some of the things that I see that Wildland Firefighters need in a folding knife.
1. LC200N knife steel. Perfect for wet environments and holds a good edge. We can be on a fire for a few weeks at a time and may not have access to a sharpening system (not that many firefighters that I have seen are good at sharpening a knife well :D I have sharpened many knives at the station for my fellow firefighters and LC200N is not to difficult to sharpen or tune up an edge) LC200N will hold up to the dirty and sometimes caustic things we can be exposed to like that pink retardant dropped on us.
2. Light! a heavy knife is a drag and we already carry 110 lbs on initial attack with hose packs on steep terrain in 100 degree plus weather or around 50 lbs without hose packs. A heavy knife is easier to lose especially if not secured well with a secondary system like a lanyard and a small carabiner.
3. An ergonomic handle that can be used with to apply significant force without hot spots or fatigue
4. This may be a challenge, but a way to cut barbed wire for access to a fire or escape from a fire (I have my ideas though) In Wildland firefighting, we often need to tangle with a barbed wire fence
5. Ability to deploy while wearing Wildland Firefighting gloves
6. Blade and edge geometry to be able to get some rough use but still cut fire hose.
7. On us at all times, this means a folder.

[Fireman]

Thank you for the recommendations, those are all great knives but I think we can come up with a good purpose driven knife for this niche of firefighters that could be useful to many others as well.

[Bemo]

What would be unique to a wildland firefighter's knife that is different than what's available. I'm personally always interested in what the question is that a particular design is trying to answer. I confess I have no idea what your needs are. Of course that's how the Pulaski was developed (and I believe in my home state of Idaho). I'm always interested in learning. Thanks.

[aicolainen]

Interesting topic.
Being a European, I had to look into what Wildland Firefighters actually are, and that stuff looks quite interesting, and demanding.
I've been into SAR/K-9/mountian rescue for just about 20 years, and although firefighting is a totally different scenario with regards to challenges and equipment, this type of firefighting still feels like a somewhat related job/service, and it's always interesting to have a peek into the tought process of others that perform critical operations in demanding environments.

If you have a design layed out, it's understandable if you want to keep your cards to your chest, but it would be interesting to get some more insight into the needs and challenges that you face out there, and some of the properties you look for in an knife, without revealing too much

[JD Spydo]

This is most interesting. Because we used to have a firefighter here on the forum who was quite popular and I miss him a lot. He went by the Forum name of "Tonydahose". It was always interesting to hear his point of view because I do believe that firefighters have a very unique set of needs for their knives.

Spyderco is one company that I always thought were great pertaining to designing knives for "first responders". Because one of their most iconic knives ever is their POLICE model. This should be a great challenge for Spyderco to come up with an ideal blade specifically for firefighters. And for those fighting these wildfires specifically.

[Doc Dan]

I think a red handled Aqua Salt serrated would be a good choice for a firefighter's knife, or a Jumpmaster 2.

[Fireman]

My apologies, I duplicated a thread start. I thought my thread did not get started but I was just not aware that it needed approval before becoming public. I will try to keep all replies on that thread since it has the most replies thus far. Thank you for the interest and support.

[Fireman]

I am trying to refine the details of the design right now with a focus on production methods and cost. A knife can be quite expensive if there are too many details or the manufacture process is too complicated. Trying to find balance that is not too expensive but accomplishes the goals without the custom knife price that would benefit only a few. I have a few ideas that I think would be great and would be interesting to get some feedback from a manufacturer like Spyderco. I am partial to Spyderco because of my great experience with them and their knives.

[aicolainen]

I generally don't pay much attention to Wranglestar, but not knowing much about this subject, my searches yielded quite a few hits on his YT channel. Presuming he is as experienced in Wildland firefighting as he projects, it seems like heat resistance is a major concern. And quite obviously it has to be to some extent, but I wasn't really able to conclude on how much temperature items need to withstand.

Obviously this type of application is new to me, so I'm pretty far off my home turf, like in there is absolutely no reason to assume any of my ideas and thought around this has any practical value. Anyhow, I enjoy thinking about issues like these, so I couldn't resist the thought experiment.

Steel. Some super stainless steels were mentioned, but it appears to me like the type of job where you would want something though, something that could double as a prybar or wedge or whatever if the situation required it. K390 maybe?

Blade shape and grind... now I'm really feeling the slippery road beneath me. This is the definition of guesswork. So, what about a tanto? Not my jam and never owned one, but certainly seems appropriate for how I picture this type of work to possibly unfold into a not so great situation.
Weight and mobility seems to be key, so not to long, maybe around 4", solid blade stock, but not excessive. Can't really make up my mind about grind, but can't stop playing with the idea of a convex, even though I've never seen a convex tanto before, so that should trigger some alarms right there :)

Grip. I might be overthinking this part. FRN doesn't quite feel right. Although the melting point of nylons are quite high, it doesn't quite provide the confidence such a tool deserves. Not knowing anything about any merits in such applications, I still feel it would have been cool to explore the use of FR-4 in this application. Full tang handle with high traction FR-4.

<sub>FR-4 (or FR4) is a NEMA grade designation for glass-reinforced epoxy laminate material. FR-4 is a composite material composed of woven fiberglass cloth with an epoxy resin binder that is flame resistant (self-extinguishing).

FR-4 glass epoxy is a popular and versatile high-pressure thermoset plastic laminate grade with good strength to weight ratios. With near zero water absorption, FR-4 is most commonly used as an electrical insulator possessing considerable mechanical strength. The material is known to retain its high mechanical values and electrical insulating qualities in both dry and humid conditions. These attributes, along with good fabrication characteristics, lend utility to this grade for a wide variety of electrical and mechanical applications.

Grade designations for glass epoxy laminates are: G-10, G-11, FR-4, FR-5 and FR-6. Of these, FR-4 is the grade most widely in use today. G-10, the predecessor to FR-4, lacks FR-4's self-extinguishing flammability characteristics. Hence, FR-4 has replaced G-10 in most applications.

FR-4 epoxy resin systems typically employ bromine, a halogen, to facilitate flame-resistant properties in FR-4 glass epoxy laminates. Some applications where thermal destruction of the material is a desirable trait will still use G-10 non flame resistant.</sub>

The knife is probably best carried in a nice durable leather sheath.

EDIT: quite a few posts added to this thread while I was typing. Not knowing the preferred attributes that are now added to the thread, like for instance it being a folding knife, makes this post kind of redundant.

[TazKristi]

My apologies, I duplicated a thread start. I thought my thread did not get started but I was just not aware that it needed approval before becoming public. I will try to keep all replies on that thread since it has the most replies thus far. Thank you for the interest and support.

Hi, Fireman:
I have merged the two threads together so everyone's replies will be in one place. Welcome to our forum, thank you for your service, and I hope you have a speedy recovery (and patience for toddler duty )

Kristi

[sal]

Thanx Kristi.

OK Fireman. You have my attention. I do have some questions so we can perhaps put it all together.

1. What is your opinion of the ideal blade length.

2. Serrations generally make better "high performance matter separators". Your thoughts?

3. Preference for lock type?

sal