Wildland Firefighters Knife

[vivi]

I'm not sure about cutting barbed wire with a knife. I think that's a job for wire cutters or a multitool with that feature.

Are you set on a folder? A fixed blade is much easier to access with thick gloves, and Spydercos G clip offers versatile mounting options.

Speaking hypothetically, as I've never been in yours shoes, I feel like a Spyderco SE Aqua Salt paired with a small Leatherman with wire cutters, or even dedicated wire cutters, would be a good combo.

Either way this is an interesting thread and I'll be following it.

[Halfneck]

I've got a custom Barry Dawson knife that has a U shaped notch on it that he said could be used to break barbed wire. Put the barbed wire in the notch, then torque the wire till it broke. Never tested it myself.

[sal]

Hey Fireman,

FYI, my wife, Gail, was a firefighter.

sal

[Fireman]

Hi Sal.
Thank you for your responsiveness and consideration. Apologies in advance for my long reply.
1. Regarding blade length, I would want to be able to cut with a single pass our 1 3/4” structural hose and 1 1/2” wildland hose on a chest pull cut or by making a bight and cutting away from the body. The wildland hose is about 2.5” wide and the structural hose is closer to 3”. The worst case scenario is if we have to retreat in a hurry from structure defense while our hoses are wrapped around a home. If we hear 3 horn blast, that means cut and run because of life safety. The ideal cutting edge length for that would be about 3 1/3” to have some room for error which means a blade length of 3 1/2” to 3 3/4” depending on finalized design.
2. As you well know, serations are great for securing the material while cutting and the advantage of more cutting edge length for a given blade length when you add up all those scalloped edges. Of the many knives I have one that gives me joy is the Spyderco Dyad for reasons of I could use the plain edge for every day use because of ease of sharpening and the serrated edge only in case of emergency. (I still have never used the serrated edge) I don’t EDC that knife anymore but still love it. In my experience, not many have the tools, drive, knowledge or skill to keep the edge of a serrated knife even though it can have superior cutting abilities and stay sharp longer. My preference if there was to be only one version of this knife would be a plain edge that would be easy to maintain the edge for long periods of time of use without a sharpening system. I being a knife nerd have many sharpening devices and even a small smooth river rock pack sometimes to tune my edge along with a fine DMT sharpener I keep in my day pack in the engine. I could see a version with and without serrations obviously and serrated edges tend to be a preference and type of use decision.
3. Lock type. Being exposed to water, dirt and dust for weeks, my initial thought is the tried and true liner lock like that on the Spyderco Military and the like that have seen so much action in dirty places. I think nesting the liner lock and lightening it up and keeping it thin like on the Caribbean would be ideal with phosphor bronze washers.

As we say in the service, “Clear as mud?”

Thanks again for the consideration

[Fireman]

I generally don't pay much attention to Wranglestar, but not knowing much about this subject, my searches yielded quite a few hits on his YT channel. Presuming he is as experienced in Wildland firefighting as he projects, it seems like heat resistance is a major concern. And quite obviously it has to be to some extent, but I wasn't really able to conclude on how much temperature items need to withstand.

Obviously this type of application is new to me, so I'm pretty far off my home turf, like in there is absolutely no reason to assume any of my ideas and thought around this has any practical value. Anyhow, I enjoy thinking about issues like these, so I couldn't resist the thought experiment.

Steel. Some super stainless steels were mentioned, but it appears to me like the type of job where you would want something though, something that could double as a prybar or wedge or whatever if the situation required it. K390 maybe?

Blade shape and grind... now I'm really feeling the slippery road beneath me. This is the definition of guesswork. So, what about a tanto? Not my jam and never owned one, but certainly seems appropriate for how I picture this type of work to possibly unfold into a not so great situation.
Weight and mobility seems to be key, so not to long, maybe around 4", solid blade stock, but not excessive. Can't really make up my mind about grind, but can't stop playing with the idea of a convex, even though I've never seen a convex tanto before, so that should trigger some alarms right there :)

Grip. I might be overthinking this part. FRN doesn't quite feel right. Although the melting point of nylons are quite high, it doesn't quite provide the confidence such a tool deserves. Not knowing anything about any merits in such applications, I still feel it would have been cool to explore the use of FR-4 in this application. Full tang handle with high traction FR-4.

<sub>FR-4 (or FR4) is a NEMA grade designation for glass-reinforced epoxy laminate material. FR-4 is a composite material composed of woven fiberglass cloth with an epoxy resin binder that is flame resistant (self-extinguishing).

FR-4 glass epoxy is a popular and versatile high-pressure thermoset plastic laminate grade with good strength to weight ratios. With near zero water absorption, FR-4 is most commonly used as an electrical insulator possessing considerable mechanical strength. The material is known to retain its high mechanical values and electrical insulating qualities in both dry and humid conditions. These attributes, along with good fabrication characteristics, lend utility to this grade for a wide variety of electrical and mechanical applications.

Grade designations for glass epoxy laminates are: G-10, G-11, FR-4, FR-5 and FR-6. Of these, FR-4 is the grade most widely in use today. G-10, the predecessor to FR-4, lacks FR-4's self-extinguishing flammability characteristics. Hence, FR-4 has replaced G-10 in most applications.

FR-4 epoxy resin systems typically employ bromine, a halogen, to facilitate flame-resistant properties in FR-4 glass epoxy laminates. Some applications where thermal destruction of the material is a desirable trait will still use G-10 non flame resistant.</sub>

The knife is probably best carried in a nice durable leather sheath.

EDIT: quite a few posts added to this thread while I was typing. Not knowing the preferred attributes that are now added to the thread, like for instance it being a folding knife, makes this post kind of redundant.

Thank you for the reply. A with how much we sweat, LC200N is a must. It is ridiculous how much we sweat. I even get salt stains in the ankles on my Whites logger boots. I think sweat is even worse for a knife than salt water.
I was thinking G-10 for the handle material but have a love of linen micarta. It needs to have enough texture to grip but not wear out our PPE. As far as heat is concerned, sometimes we fight fire with fire and run drip torches from 2 AM till 5AM doing back burns, so the knife can heat up from the radiant heat from the exposed metal like the pocket clip but if you can’t take that much heat for long without it having an affect on you and if you are exposed to that much heat to have a negative affect, you are probably doing something wrong.

[Fireman]

Hey Fireman,

FYI, my wife, Gail, was a firefighter.

sal

Awesome! I wish more females would join the fire service. When we lost our home to a fire (that was the genesis of me becoming a firefighter) a female was venting our roof when I arrived to see our home ablaze.

[Fireman]

I've got a custom Barry Dawson knife that has a U shaped notch on it that he said could be used to break barbed wire. Put the barbed wire in the notch, then torque the wire till it broke. Never tested it myself.

This was a part of my thinking. Like the Hoodlom knife. Possibly using the notch as a possible deployment method and window breaker if it can work out right. for those who may not know, if a car window is rolled down slightly, you can put the notch over the edge and pry it till it shatters for extracation of patients Ironing that out now.

I think a red handled Aqua Salt serrated would be a good choice for a firefighter's knife, or a Jumpmaster 2.

A glow in the dark handle would be great as well as bright colors to find it if you lose it but most prefer black although red is the color of our service.

[Fireman]

I carry a multi tool with wire cutters but there are some problems.
1. the knife on the multi tool sucks
2. It’s heavy and you only need a few items on it.
3. you carry it on the belt and when carrying 50 lb web gear (think backpack) and sometimes double that it awkwardly gets in the way of the waist strap so it is pressed into my hips and that is bad over time.
4. using a multi tool is slow and difficult with gloves on

Regarding a fixed blade, I love a fixed blade but the best place for it would be upside down on the shoulder strap of the web gear and you don’t always have that on you. Definite pluses and minuses of a fixed blade and I have also thought about a fixed version of the folder but you can have a kydex sheath made to hold the opened version of the folder knife as well as closed with a trick up my sleeve for that as well.

I'm not sure about cutting barbed wire with a knife. I think that's a job for wire cutters or a multitool with that feature.

Are you set on a folder? A fixed blade is much easier to access with thick gloves, and Spydercos G clip offers versatile mounting options.

Speaking hypothetically, as I've never been in yours shoes, I feel like a Spyderco SE Aqua Salt paired with a small Leatherman with wire cutters, or even dedicated wire cutters, would be a good combo.

Either way this is an interesting thread and I'll be following it.

[Fireman]

I've got a custom Barry Dawson knife that has a U shaped notch on it that he said could be used to break barbed wire. Put the barbed wire in the notch, then torque the wire till it broke. Never tested it myself.

By the way...
I heard of issues with some of the early Buck Hoodlum knives breaking during battoning (not that you would do that with this knife) but the U shape notch that is a part of my design (the matter is where and if) does not have the weakness of having corners like the Hoodlum apparently has.

[carrot]

What do you think about combo edge, to get the field sharpening of PE and the cutting power of SE? In a larger blade, you can get plenty of both edges.

[odomandr]

what about the autonomy that heli guy had was not suitable? I know that hey are a bit heavy but i almost think it checks all your boxes, except the barb wire. Im thinking a small pair of knipex or vice grips must have a cable snip.

[vivi]

I carry a multi tool with wire cutters but there are some problems.
1. the knife on the multi tool sucks
2. It’s heavy and you only need a few items on it.
3. you carry it on the belt and when carrying 50 lb web gear (think backpack) and sometimes double that it awkwardly gets in the way of the waist strap so it is pressed into my hips and that is bad over time.
4. using a multi tool is slow and difficult with gloves on

Regarding a fixed blade, I love a fixed blade but the best place for it would be upside down on the shoulder strap of the web gear and you don’t always have that on you. Definite pluses and minuses of a fixed blade and I have also thought about a fixed version of the folder but you can have a kydex sheath made to hold the opened version of the folder knife as well as closed with a trick up my sleeve for that as well.

I'm not sure about cutting barbed wire with a knife. I think that's a job for wire cutters or a multitool with that feature.

Are you set on a folder? A fixed blade is much easier to access with thick gloves, and Spydercos G clip offers versatile mounting options.

Speaking hypothetically, as I've never been in yours shoes, I feel like a Spyderco SE Aqua Salt paired with a small Leatherman with wire cutters, or even dedicated wire cutters, would be a good combo.

Either way this is an interesting thread and I'll be following it.

Sounds like if there was a fixed version, there would need to be a low ride sheath option to avoid the waist strap of a heavy pack.

[Doc Dan]

I've got a custom Barry Dawson knife that has a U shaped notch on it that he said could be used to break barbed wire. Put the barbed wire in the notch, then torque the wire till it broke. Never tested it myself.

This was a part of my thinking. Like the Hoodlom knife. Possibly using the notch as a possible deployment method and window breaker if it can work out right. for those who may not know, if a car window is rolled down slightly, you can put the notch over the edge and pry it till it shatters for extracation of patients Ironing that out now.

I think a red handled Aqua Salt serrated would be a good choice for a firefighter's knife, or a Jumpmaster 2.

A glow in the dark handle would be great as well as bright colors to find it if you lose it but most prefer black although red is the color of our service.

Maybe a couple of tritium tube inserts would be a good idea, buried under a thin layer of clear FRN or FRCP, somehow.

[soulspy]

I thinking an XL Rock Jumper in Red G-10 with an LC200N SE blade. Called the Fire Jumper.

[Fireman]

what about the autonomy that heli guy had was not suitable? I know that hey are a bit heavy but i almost think it checks all your boxes, except the barb wire. Im thinking a small pair of knipex or vice grips must have a cable snip.

There are legality issues with an auto :confused:

[Fireman]

I like where you are going but then the issue becomes cost I am not sure what that cost would be and then the retail mark up on top compared to some of the existing materials and then performance. Good thinking though.

I've got a custom Barry Dawson knife that has a U shaped notch on it that he said could be used to break barbed wire. Put the barbed wire in the notch, then torque the wire till it broke. Never tested it myself.

This was a part of my thinking. Like the Hoodlom knife. Possibly using the notch as a possible deployment method and window breaker if it can work out right. for those who may not know, if a car window is rolled down slightly, you can put the notch over the edge and pry it till it shatters for extracation of patients Ironing that out now.

I think a red handled Aqua Salt serrated would be a good choice for a firefighter's knife, or a Jumpmaster 2.

A glow in the dark handle would be great as well as bright colors to find it if you lose it but most prefer black although red is the color of our service.

Maybe a couple of tritium tube inserts would be a good idea, buried under a thin layer of clear FRN or FRCP, somehow.

[JRinFL]

I had mentioned the idea of a LC200N version of the Moran fixed blade, but it I'm not sure even that would fit your needs. Opening a folder with firefighter gloves has to be fairly difficult, I suspect.

[Fireman]

I had mentioned the idea of a LC200N version of the Moran fixed blade, but it I'm not sure even that would fit your needs. Opening a folder with firefighter gloves has to be fairly difficult, I suspect.

The glove issue is real and that is why i’m working on the deployment method. Wildland fire gloves are not as thick as structure fire gloves thankfully. Again, I can see a fixed version but the best tool is the one on you and a folder would more likely be available and used.

[Fireman]

I was working on the design last night, might be time for a few prototypes soon. That is where I need some help. Thank you for your support!

[sal]

Hi Fireman,

Not only thanx for your service, thanx for being here and sharing. Nothing makes a knife happier than serving it's master.

While I've not given it a lot of thought, A Sheepfoot Military FRN might serve?

sal