Wildland Firefighters Knife

[Fireman]

We know that this is going to be designed for Wildland Firefighters, but I can’t help to think how many police or military people would want a military model style knife with a sheep’s foot or modified sheep’s foot blade design that can cut or break wire. I don’t see why it could not be all blacked out for more covert stuff. If you are in those fields of experience or career, can you chime in and give your insight? Thanks!

[aicolainen]

I find this topic interesting, but I've been busy and had to leave it for a while. Just catched up from page one.
On that same page (1) I pretty much proved I don't have much to bring to the table regarding the actual design of a WF knife.
As a more general observation though, I can't help feeling that the direction of this design is heading toward the complex end. That's not always better.
Now, I'm pretty sure Sal is on top of this, and able to weigh the pros and cons as well as anyone, but just felt like mentioning it.

I realized early on that my situation as a K9 SAR dog handler in sub arctic conditions is very different than that of a WF, but one thing we seem to have in common is that low weight and hence being nimble and fast saves the day. And the fact that we go into the unknown, alone, and have to keep ourself and our assignment going with whatever we bring along.
This is a terrible equation to solve.

Just as a counter weight to what looks like an ongoing scope creep, I can share a slightly relevant experience from my own knife life. I haven't always had an interest in knives, it's a pretty new thing for me actually, and as such I never really had a purpose built rescue knife. One of the first knives that got my attention after falling into the rabbit hole was the Benchmade Triage. Bright orange, high traction G10, sheepsfoot blade, rescue hook and glass breaker. It had everything. Including a respectable weight and price tag. It was in my shopping cart a million times, but I could never pull the trigger. Something told me it wasn't right (I've later regretted not buying it, but that's for a very different reason and a story for another time).
As more time went by and I fell deeper into the rabbit hole, my knife hobby and SAR interest intersected again. This time it was Hinderer who had the perfect trap set up for me, with his original design, appealing back story and a solid piece of knife. It was so, so close.
I realized my interest in knives had gotten the better of me, and I was not thinking things through from a rational point of view.
There is no point running out in the mountains with a knife that expensive. Worst case it becomes as much a distraction as it is an asset.
With my new found enlightenment I did a rational analysis of what I wanted and how I could best fulfill that. The solution for me was a modular system with the edged tools in my base kit being a Salt 2 placed in my dog handler vest and a Benchmade rescue hook on my belt.
I don't remember the numbers, but combined they both weigh and cost significantly less than the Triage or XM-18, and in my opinion they do everything better AND by no longer putting all my eggs in the same basket, I have some redundancy as well.
It's so easy to loose or forget something in a stressful situation, and having two complementary cutting tools located on independent garments, that each on their own is substantially better than no cutting tool, is comforting.
This was long winded. All to say - remember to keep it real, don't compromise on the primary function to achieve "nice to have" features, and remember that redundancy and modularity can be worth a slight weight penalty.

[Fireman]

Thanks for the in-depth insight and input. The “nice to have” option just may be a separate tool but time will tell.

[sal]

I'm still cutting wires of all kinds with the many wire-cutters that I'v purchased and am using for this project. I've not done any "bending wire" tests. I was kinda hoping some others might want to play? I will say that the larger wire cutters cut hard wire more easily than the smaller ones, even of good quality. Leverage does mater.

sal

[ChrisinHove]

It’s hard to see how these could be significantly improved upon as they were made to reliably cut barbed wire in combat. I guess modern steel technology could slim them a little.

https://youtu.be/dTLod5_QGXQ

[ChrisinHove]

Bayonet type :

https://youtu.be/wYnD1rOL0LQ

[JRinFL]

It’s hard to see how these could be significantly improved upon as they were made to reliably cut barbed wire in combat. I guess modern steel technology could slim them a little.

https://youtu.be/dTLod5_QGXQ

I have a pair of those. They work quite well on wire, but are heavy and bulky.

[Surfingringo]

What about a v-shaped cutout in the handle with two opposing pieces of cutting material (like hacksaw blade) set in the V. Kind of like those cheap carbide sharpeners. You could wedge the wire into the v and just move the handle up and down until it cut through. You would want to design it in such a way that the blades could be easily replaced?

[Fireman]

I will make a prototype breaker and report

[ChrisinHove]

It’s hard to see how these could be significantly improved upon as they were made to reliably cut barbed wire in combat. I guess modern steel technology could slim them a little.

https://youtu.be/dTLod5_QGXQ

I have a pair of those. They work quite well on wire, but are heavy and bulky.

Military barbed wire was much thicker than the stock fencing type that we see used here, but is that true in America? If so, a much smaller version might suffice - akin to the SOG compound leverage multitool, but with folding handle extensions rather than tools.

Having toured the WW1 battlefields a little too much, this thread always reminds me of that song...
“...
If you want to find the private
I know where he is
He's hanging on the old barbed wire
....”

[JRinFL]

I would suspect that wire used to keep cattle on your land is less thick than military barbed wire. Needs vs cost and all that.

Sal is working on it and I’m curious to see his take on the problem.

[JRinFL]

I'm still cutting wires of all kinds with the many wire-cutters that I'v purchased and am using for this project. I've not done any "bending wire" tests. I was kinda hoping some others might want to play? I will say that the larger wire cutters cut hard wire more easily than the smaller ones, even of good quality. Leverage does mater.

sal

A fold out carbon fiber handle extension might help?

[aicolainen]

A little beside the point, but why do cattle owners use barbed wire at all? Surely it's probably the least expensive solution short term, but I suspect that burning pastures aren't exactly profitable, so if I want firefighters to put out fires on my land, I kind of want to make it as safe and easy for them as possible...
Around here barbed wire has been illegal for civilian use for a long time now. The cattle still stays in place and nobody seem to miss the days when you unexpectedly get caught in some old abandoned, half overgrown barbed wire while out walking in the woods.
Sorry for the OT, just seems like a problem that should be addressed on several levels, not just by fighting the symptom with a cutting tool.

[ChrisinHove]

Cattle could easily push over most fences: the barbs, like the pulses of an electric fence, put them off the idea, I guess.

[Fireman]

Most barbed wire we encounter is decades old and won’t put up too much of a fight with a notch breaker but I need to make up a prototype with several angles to see what works best. I can see a separate titanium barbed wire “Key” if necessary.

[nerdlock]

Bayonet type :

https://youtu.be/wYnD1rOL0LQ

Thank you for this informative video. Seems like the M9 design is much better and requires less force to break a wire.

[nerdlock]

I just watched "Only The Brave" last night about the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

Boy, was I emotional at the end. I am a member of our local government (county in US parlance) first responder team, and I know first hand how hard it is to be a responder, be a firefighter, paramedic, police, etc.

Usually here, we deal with floodings due to our climate. Those wildland firefighters are a whole different stuff, another level of badassery. Watching their stories and how dedicated they were to their work, until the very end, was nothing short of heartbreaking.

I highly recommend watching the movie to everyone here in this thread. I now have an understanding of the scope and gravity of being a wildland firefighter and how each one depends, with their lives, on their equipment functioning properly and reliably.

@Fireman, at first I was skeptical of your desire to have another knife design when there are many Spyderco knives designed for rescue and military applications - but seeing the movie, researching afterwards, and seeing how wildland firefighting has its whole different sets of challenges for you to overcome, I'm grateful that you are putting this on the table and hoping that Spyderco can come up with a design that can meet the demands of your profession.

[sal]

That's why the thread is still alive and moving forward. My wife, Gale, was a fire fighter, and the Hotshots in Arizona really "punched us". Equipment is important and we're in the "equipment business" and we specialize in High performance.

I'm skeptical of Fireman's bending fixture, which he is going to test it for us. (We can help make those parts if you give us dimensions).

I've been testing a variety of different sized wire cutters. We've already decided on a Military style Walker Linerlock with a sheepfoot blade. Now we're discussing the wire removal tool.

sal

[Blnd]

It’s hard to see how these could be significantly improved upon as they were made to reliably cut barbed wire in combat. I guess modern steel technology could slim them a little.

https://youtu.be/dTLod5_QGXQ

Knipex seems to have done exactly that...

I carry a pair of their mini 6” bolt cutters in my backpack when I’m at work in the field, and I have another pair in my EDC pouch for my messenger bag. Those zip through barbed wire and chain link with a quick squeeze. I can’t help but think a pair of those in a good Belt sheath wouldn’t be the better option than an “all-in-one” option.

[ChrisinHove]

The Knipex would probably be hard to beat, head to head, so something smaller and/or lighter is needed if there is any purpose to this.

How about a rear pincer handle (green) articulated around a carbide wheel (red) pivot at the rear of the main knife handle (blue)?

Obviously any wire cutting is by forcing the wire into the sharp wheel by means of the articulated handle, and rotating like a pipe cutter.

Apologies for the iPhone sketch quality!