Wildland Firefighters Knife

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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olywa
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#121

Post by olywa »

Someone mentioned Knipex wire cutters earlier and they are some of the best and they hold a cutting edge longer than most. I'm not a firefighter but I know my way around barbed wire pretty well. If I'm going out to work on fence I carry tools specific for the task. But if I'm just out on my property for any other reason I carry a slim Knipex Bolt Cutter with me (71 01 200 R). Less than 8" long, slim, mebbe 12 oz.? Never know when it's going to come in handy.

Appreciate the heck out of what you do Fireman. I was in Emergency Preparedness for about 15 years and attended more than a few ICS trainings led by Wildland Fire guys.
Last edited by olywa on Tue Oct 20, 2020 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rozzi
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#122

Post by rozzi »

First of all, I appreciate all of the thoughts, comments, and ideas by everyone. I know that if it is possible, Sal and the Spyderco people will come up with the best possible knife. It will be the best because all of you are sharing your interest. Now, Two things, if you would like to learn more about the Yarnell Hill fire that took the lives of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew, please visit the ericmarshfoundation.org website. They can use your support.

Last, support your local Fire Department. Not just by thanking them when you see them (although that is always appreciated), but most,importantly, at the ballot box. Nobody likes taxes, but they are necessary to equip and train your firefighters. Yes, I said your firefighters. They are willing to risk, and give, their lives for you and your family. So please, do what you can. Again, thank you for caring enough to get involved with this project.

Sal, your Golden Fire Department is fighting the Cameron Peak Fire as I type this.
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sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#123

Post by sal »

Hi Rozzi,

Welcome to our forum.

Hey Kissaki,

I don't remember welcoming you to our forum, so Welcome.

We're really getting some good information on this thread, thanx much. I'm also purchasing and studying wire cutters. Something small but strong. There is also the possibility of ratchet wire cutters made from a hard material.

sal
R100
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#124

Post by R100 »

Great discussion you have kicked off here Fireman.

I have the training but not much experience with serious wildfires. I do however have a lot of experience with barbed wire and I can't see any attachment on a knife being able to quickly cut barbed wire fences. Remember that most fences will be 4 or 5 strands so you need to do that many cuts, not just one. Modern barbed wire is often high tensile strength and difficult to cut. I have found the most effective light weight option to be small, high quality bolt cutters. They are fast and reliable and not too heavy. A pair of these carried with the knife would probably avoid a lot of design compromises.

Wildfire behaviour is moving into new territory and fires are moving faster than ever before. You can't afford any lost time if your escape is blocked by a barbed wire fence.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#125

Post by ChrisinHove »

The mechanical advantage created by the Knipex plier wrench handle (and similar) might be simpler than a ratchet and is very, very effective.

What about a sharpened ‘V’ gut-hook to act like a pipe-cutter? On a pivot, the handle end would push the wire into the ‘V’ as you rotated it around the wire you are trying to cut.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#126

Post by JRinFL »

ChrisinHove wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:09 am
The mechanical advantage created by the Knipex plier wrench handle (and similar) might be simpler than a ratchet and is very, very effective.

What about a sharpened ‘V’ gut-hook to act like a pipe-cutter? On a pivot, the handle end would push the wire into the ‘V’ as you rotated it around the wire you are trying to cut.
Maybe a carbide wheel cutter would work, but I'd fear that it might not be intuitive enough for those under stress. Stress like fleeing a wild fire that is about to surround you.

The wheel cutter idea would need the notch like above, but would still need a handle to apply pressure.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#127

Post by ChrisinHove »

JRinFL wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:44 am
ChrisinHove wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:09 am
The mechanical advantage created by the Knipex plier wrench handle (and similar) might be simpler than a ratchet and is very, very effective.

What about a sharpened ‘V’ gut-hook to act like a pipe-cutter? On a pivot, the handle end would push the wire into the ‘V’ as you rotated it around the wire you are trying to cut.
Maybe a carbide wheel cutter would work, but I'd fear that it might not be intuitive enough for those under stress. Stress like fleeing a wild fire that is about to surround you.

The wheel cutter idea would need the notch like above, but would still need a handle to apply pressure.
You’re right. The existing plier-type solutions are obviously the best, mechanically. I was assuming access rather than escape.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#128

Post by JRinFL »

Your idea would make for a very compact wire cutter that could work on many other designs.
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sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#129

Post by sal »

Hi R100,

Welcome to our forum.

sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#130

Post by sal »

I'm still not convinced that wire bending is the best solution, ut I'll keep an open mind. I'd like to make a proto of a handle with the "bending notch"? Some of you have suggested various brands and models. I'm also going to Rc them.

sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#131

Post by Fireman »

I was wondering if the notch was cut at an angle and not just 90 degrees to the surface at about 45 degrees and the metal was around 3/16” thick it would break the wire better. That way you would increase the bending angle to one side so the metal would fail sooner. Testing a few different angles would be a good idea and not just a 90 degree cut. The width of the notch matters too obviously. I am going to do some testing of this theory soon.
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olywa
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#132

Post by olywa »

It's worth noting that 'bending' tightly strung barbwire in order to break it can be a challenge. Not at all the same as breaking off a section from a loose end.
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Kissaki
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#133

Post by Kissaki »

Hi Sal,

You might want to revisit elements of the World War II OSS/SOE wire cutter/escape knife design - https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/ww2 ... w.1425209/

Always wanted one of the modernized Al Mar versions, but they seem to be pretty scarce these days. Perhaps one of your colleagues in Seki could find you a loaner for T&E.

K
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#134

Post by Fireman »

https://youtu.be/U-xwP6gZPDI
@1 min 12 seconds

https://youtu.be/QG_Bfyd6l14
@3 min 58 seconds

more wire breaking
second one is thick new barbed wire.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#135

Post by ChrisinHove »

On the basis that there is nothing new under the sun...

Here’s an eBay pic of an old set - clearly some mechanical advantage from the pivot arrangement.

929C0153-E506-4ED6-BD3C-12C4304EEC35.png
And some British Army equivalents from WW2
D18456ED-B031-4C3A-AA16-858EE093A351.jpeg
097625A2-8E4B-436D-B62F-806730BF3D64.jpeg
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#136

Post by Fireman »

Testing will tell how this turns out. The journey will be a great one. Thanks for everyone’s input.
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sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#137

Post by sal »

Kissaki wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 3:30 pm
Always wanted one of the modernized Al Mar versions, but they seem to be pretty scarce these days. Perhaps one of your colleagues in Seki could find you a loaner for T&E.
Hi Kissaki,

I've got a couple of them. Al was a friend of mine.

sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#138

Post by sal »

I've been buying high quality wire cutters for testing. Wire cutters separate wire in seconds, not minutes. Three minutes is a lifetime when running from the beast.

I would like to hunt grizzlies with a .22 pistol. Would save a lot of weight :rolleyes: But I'd probably be bear food.

sal
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#139

Post by Bill1170 »

JRinFL wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:44 am
ChrisinHove wrote:
Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:09 am
The mechanical advantage created by the Knipex plier wrench handle (and similar) might be simpler than a ratchet and is very, very effective.

What about a sharpened ‘V’ gut-hook to act like a pipe-cutter? On a pivot, the handle end would push the wire into the ‘V’ as you rotated it around the wire you are trying to cut.
Maybe a carbide wheel cutter would work, but I'd fear that it might not be intuitive enough for those under stress. Stress like fleeing a wild fire that is about to surround you.

The wheel cutter idea would need the notch like above, but would still need a handle to apply pressure.
All these solutions that gnaw at the wire or work harden it so it breaks are just too slow. A good pair of high leverage side cutters or linesman pliers make quick work of barbed wire. I used my now-ancient Channellock 349’s to cut barbed wire in my Colorado property and they are still good 30 years later. They’ve cut and pried out many 16d nails, too. Quick action is important in a crisis.
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Re: Wildland Firefighters Knife

#140

Post by Fireman »

Sometimes we start a hoselay up a hill and then we find ourselves up against a barbed wire fence once we get to some ranch border and often times we use our hand tools (Pulaski, McLeod or sometimes a shovel) to make a larger opening to go under or through the fence but that while fighting fire is not the best option as I would rather cut it to have a better escape route and to fight fire quicker. Often times we don’t want to cut all the wires because of livestock (mostly cattle and horses) that the ranchers are trying to keep on the ranch but that will depend on the circumstances like fire activity and the fuels.
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