H-1 Questions

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
The Meat man
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Re: H-1 Questions

#21

Post by The Meat man »

Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:58 am
H1 does not work harden, at least according to Larrin's findings.

Here is everything you would ever want to know about H1...


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/ ... -it-works/
I think you mean the grinding process does not contribute in any significant way to work hardening.
Pretty much any steel will work harden if you deform it.
I've pointed this out a couple times in the HRC database thread, that Larrin tested a Salt knife and it came in around 55-56. This data matches my experience. None of my serrated H-1 knives behave anywhere close to a 65 or 68 HRC blade. It's surprising to me that people keep repeating that number.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#22

Post by Albatross »

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:33 pm
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:58 am
H1 does not work harden, at least according to Larrin's findings.

Here is everything you would ever want to know about H1...


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/ ... -it-works/
I think you mean the grinding process does not contribute in any significant way to work hardening.
Pretty much any steel will work harden if you deform it.
I've pointed this out a couple times in the HRC database thread, that Larrin tested a Salt knife and it came in around 55-56. This data matches my experience. None of my serrated H-1 knives behave anywhere close to a 65 or 68 HRC blade. It's surprising to me that people keep repeating that number.

Yes, deformation will cause work hardening, but for that to happen, it requires a lot more than most people realize. I forget who said it, but supposedly it takes major deformation (the kind most people would send in for warranty repair) to work harden H1. Take that with a grain of salt.

Since it's going to be extremely rare, it's not something I'm going to say is the rule of thumb.

Yes, those numbers don't make sense to me and I thought edges couldn't be tested, because of the angle and how rockwell testing machines work.

I don't mind being wrong though.

If someone has one they are willing to test, that might be the only way to get more clarification on the matter.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#23

Post by Albatross »

vivi wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:12 pm
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 11:58 am
H1 does not work harden, at least according to Larrin's findings.

Here is everything you would ever want to know about H1...


https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/ ... -it-works/
IIRC Larrin has not ever used serrated H1 personally. Something to keep in mind.

On paper results don't always line up with real world results. My M4 Manix thread is one example.
That is true, but I guess I'm just not sure why the grind itself would lead to work hard hardening, and why PE doesn't seem to see the same performance bump reported by SE users.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#24

Post by zuludelta »

I'd really like it if there were some publicly-available empirical data on serrated edge H1 and how it compares to other steels in plain edge as far as edge retention, although I guess comparing serrated edges to plain edges is a bit of an apples to oranges thing in a way.

I do recall a YouTuber getting edge retention comparable to D2 from a plain edge H1 blade, although it required multiple sharpenings. His theory was that the multiple sharpenings removed "burnt steel" from the edge that was probably the result of the factory grinding process. I don't have any data to dispute that, though the "on paper" chemistry of H1 doesn't seem to support his findings. But I think his testing was attempted in good faith, so I don't think there was any creative interpretation of the numbers going on.

I've used serrated H1 a fair bit at work & I've found that it holds a working edge through a decent amount of cutting. I haven't seen anything to make me think that it's on the level of a super steel, but it's not bad, either. Off the top of my head, I probably get about as much use out of it between touch-ups as I do serrated VG-10, and maybe a bit more than plain edge CTS-BD1N. But that's only one set of (unscientific) trials and observations in an uncontrolled environment. Any conclusions I draw from that could very well be invalid or not be replicable by others.

If I had to speculate, there's probably some complex interplay going on between Spyderco's serrated edge geometry, minor variations in the steel production process, H1's physical attributes, and maybe even confirmation bias that explains the wide range of observations & experiences people have reported about the steel's performance.

All that said, edge retention isn't the main reason I picked up my serrated H1 knives. I use serrated H1 primarily for its rustproofness, and I love that I can get my Salt 2 wet or frozen or get all sorts of crud and gunk and residue on it & forget to clean it for days or even weeks & still not have to worry about corrosion. If it holds a working edge for longer than, say, a blade in 420HC or 8Cr13MoV, that's just a bonus for me.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#25

Post by skeeg11 »

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 9:20 am
skeeg11 wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:51 am

No reason to feel like the odd man out. Serrated 8Cr13MoV probably doesn't get the recognition it deserves by many American consumers, but there's this guy Sal Sumthin' or Nuther. I hear he knows a thing or three about knives. Says he's gonna release four serrated 8Cr13MoV Wharnies in different sizes in 6-12 months. Check out the Byrd forum. I'm looking forward to them. I have the serrated Byrd Hawkbill and Cara Cara 2 Rescue in 8Cr13MoV and color me impressed.
Ha, those are the exact byrd models I have as well. They're such great knives for the money!
Thanks for pointing me to that thread. I wonder what designs we'll see? I'm kinda hoping for some FFG.
FFG would definitely be nice. Even nicer would be a blade configuration similar to Evil D's modified serrated Caribbean sheepsfoot/wharnie. Would have to get all four if that were the case.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#26

Post by vivi »

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:19 am
Welcome to the forum Kale!

I may be the odd man out here.
I have used SE H-1 fairly extensively, and if I'm being brutally honest, I haven't found it to have any sort of magical edge retention whatsoever. In fact, for me it behaves exactly as I would have expected a somewhat soft, austenitic stainless to behave.
In my experience, it is more prone to rolling, and easier dulled, than VG-10: and even the lowly 8Cr13MoV is, if not better, certainly no worse a performer than H-1 is in SE.
I'm not saying that H-1 is no good - it's an amazing steel - but it's main strength is corrosion resistance, not edge retention. At least, that's what I've found, and I own more serrated H-1 than any other steel.
I just wanted to come back to this thread to say I would much rather read a diverse set of opinions than see this forum become an echo chamber. I really enjoyed Pelagic's 4V DLC corrosion testing that contradicted my experience with a DLC S30V Manix XL, for example, and his posts were part of what inspired me to test my M4 Manix in the way I am.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#27

Post by prndltech »

zuludelta wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:39 pm

I do recall a YouTuber getting edge retention comparable to D2 from a plain edge H1 blade, although it required multiple sharpenings. His theory was that the multiple sharpenings removed "burnt steel" from the edge that was probably the result of the factory grinding process. I don't have any data to dispute that, though the "on paper" chemistry of H1 doesn't seem to support his findings. But I think his testing was attempted in good faith, so I don't think there was any creative interpretation of the numbers going on.
Most people don’t fully sharpen the same knife multiple times (or ever) before passing judgement. I usually fully sharpen a knife (not just touching up/microbeveling) out of the box to make sure I get a fresh edge first, and then I start my “testing” (which is just every day use).
After a couple sharpenings, I’ve found this to be true, that the edges do in fact last longer. Maybe it’s a placebo effect... but this seems to be the case for just about every knife that’s stuck around me.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#28

Post by The Meat man »

vivi wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 9:11 pm
The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:19 am
Welcome to the forum Kale!

I may be the odd man out here.
I have used SE H-1 fairly extensively, and if I'm being brutally honest, I haven't found it to have any sort of magical edge retention whatsoever. In fact, for me it behaves exactly as I would have expected a somewhat soft, austenitic stainless to behave.
In my experience, it is more prone to rolling, and easier dulled, than VG-10: and even the lowly 8Cr13MoV is, if not better, certainly no worse a performer than H-1 is in SE.
I'm not saying that H-1 is no good - it's an amazing steel - but it's main strength is corrosion resistance, not edge retention. At least, that's what I've found, and I own more serrated H-1 than any other steel.
I just wanted to come back to this thread to say I would much rather read a diverse set of opinions than see this forum become an echo chamber. I really enjoyed Pelagic's 4V DLC corrosion testing that contradicted my experience with a DLC S30V Manix XL, for example, and his posts were part of what inspired me to test my M4 Manix in the way I am.
Agreed! Different experiences and opinions are what keep this forum interesting. :cool:
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Re: H-1 Questions

#29

Post by Evil D »

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:19 am
Welcome to the forum Kale!

I may be the odd man out here.
I have used SE H-1 fairly extensively, and if I'm being brutally honest, I haven't found it to have any sort of magical edge retention whatsoever. In fact, for me it behaves exactly as I would have expected a somewhat soft, austenitic stainless to behave.
In my experience, it is more prone to rolling, and easier dulled, than VG-10: and even the lowly 8Cr13MoV is, if not better, certainly no worse a performer than H-1 is in SE.
I'm not saying that H-1 is no good - it's an amazing steel - but it's main strength is corrosion resistance, not edge retention. At least, that's what I've found, and I own more serrated H-1 than any other steel.


I can't say H1 is better than LC200N, I'd even go a step further and say I think LC keeps a sharper edge longer, while H1 loses its peak sharpness quicker. I can't really say which has better all out edge retention because I won't let either one go fully dull. Both steels saw near identical edge damage when cutting the same materials so toughness seems to be at least on par with each other up until you start doing wild stuff like bending the blade 90 degrees. H1 is probably far more tough towards the limit where blades start to break, but that's not a scenario I'll ever be in with a folder. I am curious about a comment Eric made about the Jumpmaster 2 though and since I don't have any SE fixed blades I may have to pick up one and see if it's any different from the H1 folders I have.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#30

Post by JRinFL »

The Meat man wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:19 am
Welcome to the forum Kale!

I may be the odd man out here.
I have used SE H-1 fairly extensively, and if I'm being brutally honest, I haven't found it to have any sort of magical edge retention whatsoever. In fact, for me it behaves exactly as I would have expected a somewhat soft, austenitic stainless to behave.
In my experience, it is more prone to rolling, and easier dulled, than VG-10: and even the lowly 8Cr13MoV is, if not better, certainly no worse a performer than H-1 is in SE.
I'm not saying that H-1 is no good - it's an amazing steel - but it's main strength is corrosion resistance, not edge retention. At least, that's what I've found, and I own more serrated H-1 than any other steel.
This is my experience as well.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#31

Post by JRinFL »

zuludelta wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 1:39 pm
I'd really like it if there were some publicly-available empirical data on serrated edge H1 and how it compares to other steels in plain edge as far as edge retention, although I guess comparing serrated edges to plain edges is a bit of an apples to oranges thing in a way.
...

If I had to speculate, there's probably some complex interplay going on between Spyderco's serrated edge geometry, minor variations in the steel production process, H1's physical attributes, and maybe even confirmation bias that explains the wide range of observations & experiences people have reported about the steel's performance.
...
Agreed on these points.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#32

Post by spoonrobot »

H1 also responds very differently to sharpening with different grits, perhaps moreso than other steels. Sharpening the serrations with a lower grit sharpening block/sticks (320 grit silicon carbide) gives a noticeably longer-lasting edge than doing the same with an 800 grit block.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#33

Post by vivi »

spoonrobot wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 7:45 am
H1 also responds very differently to sharpening with different grits, perhaps moreso than other steels. Sharpening the serrations with a lower grit sharpening block/sticks (320 grit silicon carbide) gives a noticeably longer-lasting edge than doing the same with an 800 grit block.
Agreed.

A lot of folks seem to like coarse edges for highly wear resistant steels with lots of carbides, like S110V.

But where I think these edges can also shine is on low carbide steels that are run softer. Think PE H1, AUS8, 8Cr and 1095.

Softer steels roll and blunt more easily than say, K390 taken to the mid 60's. The apex takes less force to deform. Polished edges are only good as long as you maintain apex integrity. When they blunt or roll cutting ability takes a dramatic turn for the worse.

Add some microserrations to these types of steels by giving them a very coarse finish, and even after they blunt and roll a bit, there is still slicing aggression left.

I bet there is someone out there reading this sitting on a PE H1, AUS8 or 8Cr knife they don't use a ton due to lack of edge holding. Try this idea out and see if performance improves.

I ran a lot of infornal cardboard trials with my PE Aqua Salt using a variety of finishes, and that's how I first came to appreciate coarse edges.

I started with the UF stones from Spyderco and observed how long I could slice cardboard. Then the fine. Then the medium. Then a DMT fine. Then a DMT Extra Coarse. Then the diamond rods. Then 120 grit sandpaper.

What I found is as the edge finish decreased in grit, slicing ability was able to be maintained longer. Even if the 120 grit edge had no shaving ability and the ultrafine edge could whittle a hair, the former would keep slicing and slicing while the latter displayed a steep performance drop off once that aggressive bite was worn off.

I think in some ways softer, low carbide steels benefit more from coarse edges than steels like K390, S110V and M390 do. High hardness gives those steels an edge stability softer steels can't match, letting the polished edges maintain cutting aggression for longer stretches of time. If I take a 57rc AUS8 knife to 8000 grit and chop some stuff up on a cutting board, the edge is more likely to roll and deform than 65rc K390 taken to the same finish.

At work I use bargain bin chef knives because I'm not afraid of them getting a little dinged up. They have soft stainless steels I'd guess are around 56rc based on use. I grind their edges with an 80 grit sanding belt and microbevel with the medium sharpmaker rods. Even though I enjoy a higher polish on kitchen knives used at home with harder steels, having the slight microserrations the medium stones offer lets them keep slicing longer between sharpenings. As they blunt throughout my shifts they can still slice a ripe tomato, because a mildly rolled toothy edge still bites into the skin, while a mildly rolled / blunted polished edge slips across their surface.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#34

Post by Cambertree »

Hey Kale,

It’s good to see you again. I hope you’re enjoying that byrd hawkbill, and it’s serving you well in your community garden.

There’s been some excellent posts here.

My experience with H1 is similar to Connor’s.

I think the genius of the H1 SE configuration, is it takes a relatively soft, extremely tough, low wear resistance steel and really maxes out its performance by utilising several blade geometry factors in combination.

It’s really thin behind the edge, due to the hollow grind and the acute edge angle. The edge angle is around 16-17 degrees inclusive. The way the serrations work on a straight push cut, is similar to taking a PE knife and sawing back and forth at different angles.

As Vivi said, using a coarse finish is another way of maxing out edge retention performance in these kind of steels.

Larrin’s noted before that any SE knife performs far better in CATRA tests than the same knife and steel in PE.

As far as I know, steels like S90V and 10V were never offered in SE and were only available in PE when the Jumpmaster with its high hollow grind and thin BTE geometry was tested. Most of the comparisons of SE H1 are actually to other steels in PE, not to identically ground SE knives.

In my limited experience and testing, SE H1 has about the same relation to other SE steels as PE H1 has to other PE ground steels.

That is, my hollow ground Gin-1 UKPK seems a bit harder, and more resistant to rolling and has longer lasting edge retention. My VG-10 Matriarch has noticeably better edge retention and edge strength. My 52100 CE PM2 also seems to cut longer on dry materials, and the tips of the teeth seem to roll and dull less, possibly due to the higher hardness.

One really cool thing about H1 is how it exhibits absolutely no fine edge deterioration from acidic fluids like plant sap and fruit and vegetable juices. I like how if you sharpen it and lay it aside for a while, it will still have that freshly sharpened keenness, even if you return to it months later.

None of this is to say that SE H1 is a bad steel - on the contrary, it’s a wonderful steel to have in your toolbox of different steels and blade shapes. I just find that if I don’t need complete corrosion resistance, or extreme toughness, that other steels do seem to perform better for me in SE.

I too would really like to see some ‘apples to apples’ testing of different steels in identically ground SE blades.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#35

Post by Cambertree »

Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:46 pm
Yes, those numbers don't make sense to me and I thought edges couldn't be tested, because of the angle and how rockwell testing machines work.

I don't mind being wrong though.

If someone has one they are willing to test, that might be the only way to get more clarification on the matter.
I believe when Sandvik did those readings, the blade was cut in two and the measurements were taken on the flat cross section of blade.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#36

Post by Albatross »

Cambertree wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 9:52 am
Albatross wrote:
Wed Oct 07, 2020 12:46 pm
Yes, those numbers don't make sense to me and I thought edges couldn't be tested, because of the angle and how rockwell testing machines work.

I don't mind being wrong though.

If someone has one they are willing to test, that might be the only way to get more clarification on the matter.
I believe when Sandvik did those readings, the blade was cut in two and the measurements were taken on the flat cross section of blade.
Thanks for the info. I have been looking for the original source, but haven't had any luck. I guess I know where to start now.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#37

Post by Albatross »

I've been reading about this on Cliff Stamp's website. The thread is from 2012-2015. One of the members over there tested SE and PE H1 (donated by Spyderco) for a while, and said there was no work hardening, even with the edge rolled at a 90° angle. No amount of sharpening, use, or damage seemed to make a difference.

Cliff mentioned a statement from Spyderco, which acknowledged the hardness differences between SE and PE. According to the statement, the high(er) hardness is from the grinding process. Spyderco did not say it's just a thin layer of harder steel, not an overall harder blade, but this is the case. Being a thin layer of harder steel, it won't mean a longer lasting edge forever; eventually that harder steel will be sharpened away. There is no proof that the entire blade is harder, as evidence by the hrc numbers floating around.

Every knife I've ever purchased has had a bad edge, because the grinding process generates too much heat, leading to edges that chip and dull quickly, until enough steel is sharpened away. It's the opposite effect, but is still a thin layer of steel that has a different hardness than the steel underneath. Neither will last.

Serrations do offer better cutting performance, but it's due to the extra grinding as well as the shape of the serrations.

When the K390 serrated blades are available, I expect some opinions will change.

Until someone can test all the H1 theories, I'm not sure people will be in agreement. That is science afterall isn't it? Question and test.
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Re: H-1 Questions

#38

Post by Cambertree »

Albatross wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 10:46 am
Thanks for the info. I have been looking for the original source, but haven't had any luck. I guess I know where to start now.
No worries.

It’s in Larrin’s article on H1 which was referenced earlier in this thread.

Sandvik’s measurements ranged from about 57 HRc to below 55 HRc near the edge.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/24/ ... -it-works/
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Re: H-1 Questions

#39

Post by Kale »

Hi Cambertree,

Yes, I’ve been very impressed by the Hawkbill Byrd... so much so, that I just ordered the orange Cara Cara 2 rescue knife. So I’m going to be joining Skeeg11 and The Meat Man in owning both of those. Now if only we could get a "Byrdhawk" release, I'd be all set. ;)

It's been interesting to read through everyone's opinions on H-1. I would be especially interested to see a comparison of the edge retention of H-1 with lc200n in a serrated edge.

Kale
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Re: H-1 Questions

#40

Post by cabfrank »

I've been wondering when that will happen too.
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