Big little knives

[Farmer]

Apologies for making my first post on this forum what may appear to be a moan about Spyderco. However please bear with me as I am a huge fan of the brand – in particular its continual innovation and its willingness to talk with customers :) But I do want to highlight a frustration I have with the Spyderco range of knives and perhaps start a discussion about it.

I bought my first Spyderco back in about 1995 (a Ladybug) and, in addition to other Spydies, I have also owned locking folders from Benchmade, Fallkniven, SOG (in the old days) and Chris Reeve. My current favourite is a SE Salt 2 which is almost my ideal sailing and diving knife.

In general I look for a good utility knife. For me that means easily pocketable (roughly 100mm or 4” closed), a neutral handle that allows a range of grips (no choil), a non-thermally conductive handle that’s comfortable in cold weather, a general purpose blade shape (eg drop point) and grind, with a reasonably stout tip, an adjustable pivot to manage blade play and one-hand opening. I prefer back-locks partly because they are reliable and partly because they make it harder to flick the knife open – this is important in much of Europe. Oh and I don’t think I am alone in wanting as much cutting edge packed into the handle as is possible. And therein lies the issue.

For some reason none of the ‘core’ Spyderco range of medium knives (eg the Delica, Native or Sage families), seem to have a decent amount of cutting edge for the size of handle. For example the Delica 4 has a cutting edge to handle ratio of only 0.6. Its handle could easily accommodate a blade with another 8mm (0.31”) of edge. Now that might not sound like a lot, ut it would be a significant increase from the 65mm (2.56”) currently on offer in that model.

So why do I want this extra edge? Well more cutting edge = better performance at pull cuts. One of the reasons serrated edges often out-perform plain edges is because their geometry means they simply have more cutting edge for the same length of the blade. My ‘not quite perfect’ Salt 2 would be that much better with the additional edge that could be squeezed into it.

On a related note, the comparatively small amount of cutting edge offered in many Spydercos means they tend to occupy a lot of real estate in the pocket compared to knives with similar edge lengths. The Delica 4 only has 4mm (0.15”) more blade than my Alox SAK and yet is considerably longer. Hence my tongue in cheek reference to big little knives.

Now strangely the Spyderco back-locks with the best edge to handle ratios are at either end of the size spectrum. The Ladybug and Police 4 both come in with ratios of about 0.7. So it can’t be a manufacturing reason that’s stopping Spyderco making the most of the available space. One reason may well be the need to keep within carry laws within parts of the US. And I get that’s an important consideration in terms of the market. But as I understand it, this isn’t an issue in many states. Carry laws are vastly different in the UK but again, once I am carrying a locking knife, blade or edge length aren’t relevant.
It’s also odd that other manufacturers don’t seem to have this design quirk. The Benchmade Mini-Griptilian and Mini-Bugout models both seem to have similar edge to handle ratios as their bigger brothers.

So if I’m right that many of Spyderco’s customers don’t have to worry about blade or edge length, then could we please have one or two mid-sized utility back-locks that provide the most edge possible? Perhaps the extra capability (and improved aesthetics) they’d offer might be a winner with the general consumer as well as with knife afficionados?

One possibility to quickly test the waters could be a Delica MAX. It would use exactly the same handles as the current Delica 4 but could pair them with bigger blades. It wouldn’t even need new moulds or handle tooling to be set up…

[zuludelta]

Sounds like the new RockJumper might fit your needs. It's a mid-sized backlock with a higher blade-to-handle ratio than the Delica/Endura; i.e., it has a minimal ricasso.

It's only available as a wharncliffe design right now but Sal has said that a leaf-shape/drop-point version is in the works.

If you're not completely wedded to the backlock criteria, however, Spyderco already makes a number of mid-size & middlingly large knives with relatively minimal ricassos. Off the top of my head, I can think of the Polestar (liner lock), Alcyone (liner lock), Tenacious (liner lock), Astute (liner lock), Li'l Temperance 3 (compression lock), Yojimbo 2 (compression lock), Caribbean (compression lock), Canis (compression lock), Double Bevel (liner lock), and Opus (liner lock).

[sal]

Hi Farmer,

Welcome to our forum and thanx for the support.

The concept of "edge to handle ratio" is more complicated than it might appear. As you mentioned, US laws determine much of blade/edge limits. For example, The Delica that you mentioned was designed to meet the 3" blade limit from the beginning of the design. I made the handle longer in more recent models because the handle was a tad small for larger hands. Since handles are for control over the blade, I felt the user would have more control in a longer handle (safety and control). If we pack more edge into the handle, it would not serve the many with a 3" blade length limit. Blades are for cutting and handles are for holding and control over the edge. A scalpel would not perform better if the handle were shorter or the blade was longer.

The second major variable is the type of lock used. We make a lot of back-lock models. Knives with Walker Linerlocks, Reeve Integral Locks, Compression locks, etc, are not in the plain of the blade so there is more opportunity to pack more edge into the handle, again keeping with the legal limits in the US. The other companies that you mentioned don't do much in the way of back-locks. They are more difficult to make than other locks.

Back-locks and especially front/mid back-locks have some unique features than many of our customers like. Because of the nature of a back-locks we make, the "kick" has to close over the lock bar pivot. This relationship means that there is required spacing which leaves an area between the handle and the back of the edge. The 3 original inventors of the front/mid back-lock designed the lock to meet the need of one of the 3 who had lost a hand in an accident and they wanted to create a knife that could be closed with one hand. Al Mar introduced the lock to me in the late 70's. I've been dealing with this "space" for 40 years. Many customers like this space as it gives them some distance from the edge that they perceive as a safety issue. Some like to get their fingers closed to the edge. My first solution for this space was to create the finger choil, which I first saw in the early 80's invented/designed by Mr. Moki Sakurai. This permitted the user to "choke up" to the edge and it makes for a more eye pleasing transition when closed. The next solution that I came up with was the "Handle Forward" design which is currently being tested on the Rock Jumper.

Some European countries also have size limits or lock laws, which we try to meet. Where are you?
Sorry for the long winded explanation. Hope it helps?

sal

[Cambertree]

Welcome to the forum, Farmer!

It’s pretty interesting to me to hear about the different ways people use their knives.

For me, part of the reason why the Delica works so well with the blade length it has, is it is almost the exact length of my forefinger if I extend it out along the spine of the blade. This allows really fine tip control and the ability to manoeuvre the blade without really thinking about it. Even when not using the knife with my finger along the spine, I find the human brain has an inbuilt sense of control, based on finger length.

And I guess the handle needs to be a different length to offer a comfortable fit to a wide array of hand sizes.

This might also be why bushcraft blades are often recommended to be as long in the blade as the width of your hand.

It is really just as easy to carry a 5” or 6” blade as it is to carry a 3.75”-4” blade. But when I’ve experimented with this myself, I’ve often found the tip and extra blade length can get in the way, depending on what kind of work is being done.

Of course, there’s certainly a place for longer blades, and none of this is to discount your experiences and preferences.

Nor do I have any idea if that was in Sal’s mind when he designed the Delica’s blade length.

But I think it possibly predates the time when legal restrictions on blade length were as widespread as they are today.

Have you tried the Caly 3.5 at all? That seems to offer a lot of blade length for a slim carrying handle.

[Farmer]

Sounds like the new RockJumper might fit your needs. It's a mid-sized backlock with a higher blade-to-handle ratio than the Delica/Endura; i.e., it has a minimal ricasso.

It's only available as a wharncliffe design right now but Sal has said that a leaf-shape/drop-point version is in the works.

If you're not completely wedded to the backlock criteria, however, Spyderco already makes a number of mid-size & middlingly large knives with relatively minimal ricassos. Off the top of my head, I can think of the Polestar (liner lock), Alcyone (liner lock), Tenacious (liner lock), Astute (liner lock), Li'l Temperance 3 (compression lock), Yojimbo 2 (compression lock), Caribbean (compression lock), Canis (compression lock), Double Bevel (liner lock), and Opus (liner lock).

Thanks for the reply and suggestion Zuludelta - much appreciated. I think you're right that the new RockJumper is more the sort of thing I'm looking for. Although as you say it's only in wharncliffe and it still does have a comparatively short edge for the handle.

Unfortunately due to the UK's knife laws, I'm probably stuck with back-locks only. Years ago I had a Tenacious confiscated by Customs and wouldn't fancy losing another or worse...

[Sumdumguy]

It's small, but the Baby Horn is a great knife with a lot of edge(relatively). Basically the same edge as a D4, but at half the size with a .71 E:H.

I personally like the Mantra 1 for the D4 size range. Only, it doesn't tick a lot of your boxes, aside from the .76 E:H.

[Farmer]

Hi Farmer,

Welcome to our forum and thanx for the support.

The concept of "edge to handle ratio" is more complicated than it might appear. As you mentioned, US laws determine much of blade/edge limits. For example, The Delica that you mentioned was designed to meet the 3" blade limit from the beginning of the design. I made the handle longer in more recent models because the handle was a tad small for larger hands. Since handles are for control over the blade, I felt the user would have more control in a longer handle (safety and control). If we pack more edge into the handle, it would not serve the many with a 3" blade length limit. Blades are for cutting and handles are for holding and control over the edge. A scalpel would not perform better if the handle were shorter or the blade was longer.

The second major variable is the type of lock used. We make a lot of back-lock models. Knives with Walker Linerlocks, Reeve Integral Locks, Compression locks, etc, are not in the plain of the blade so there is more opportunity to pack more edge into the handle, again keeping with the legal limits in the US. The other companies that you mentioned don't do much in the way of back-locks. They are more difficult to make than other locks.

Back-locks and especially front/mid back-locks have some unique features than many of our customers like. Because of the nature of a back-locks we make, the "kick" has to close over the lock bar pivot. This relationship means that there is required spacing which leaves an area between the handle and the back of the edge. The 3 original inventors of the front/mid back-lock designed the lock to meet the need of one of the 3 who had lost a hand in an accident and they wanted to create a knife that could be closed with one hand. Al Mar introduced the lock to me in the late 70's. I've been dealing with this "space" for 40 years. Many customers like this space as it gives them some distance from the edge that they perceive as a safety issue. Some like to get their fingers closed to the edge. My first solution for this space was to create the finger choil, which I first saw in the early 80's invented/designed by Mr. Moki Sakurai. This permitted the user to "choke up" to the edge and it makes for a more eye pleasing transition when closed. The next solution that I came up with was the "Handle Forward" design which is currently being tested on the Rock Jumper.

Some European countries also have size limits or lock laws, which we try to meet. Where are you? (BTW, your English is very good).

Sorry for the long winded explanation. Hope it helps?

sal

Hi Sal and many thanks for both the welcome and for the response to my thoughts. Much appreciated! To answer your question re location, I'm based in the UK. In fact you and I had some brief contact a good few years ago on the now sadly defunct BritishBlades forum. As an aside - it's great to see the UKPK that stemmed from BB is back again in full G-10 glory :)

Thanks too for your insight into the complex world of designing backlocks. From what you've said it sounds like there are three issues in play. Firstly there are the compromises due to the specific nature of the lock - eg you'll always need some kind of kick and that will eat into the available edge length. Secondly there is the question of whether users would get benefits from having more edge for a given length of handle - as you've said for some applications it's not helpful, but for others it definitely assists. Finally there are specific legal constraints on blade length in some parts of the world.

Of those three issues, the kick is the design constraint that cannot be avoided. And I suspect there must be a maximum edge:handle ratio beyond which any design simply won't work. After looking at the backlocks made by yourselves, Fallkniven and Lion Steel, I'm assuming that maximum value will be about 0.7.

Beyond that natural limit then it's just a question of determining market size - ie are there enough people who live in jurisdictions with relaxed knife laws who want more edge? Clearly this is your area of expertise rather than mine! But I do see quite a few people on forums like this who would love to see more edge in their Spydercos...

Anyway my aim with this thread was to pose the question and see if it provoked any interest. But even if I never get to see my ideal Spyderco, then what better result to get an answer from the head man himself. Cheers Sal :)

[Farmer]

Welcome to the forum, Farmer!

It’s pretty interesting to me to hear about the different ways people use their knives.

For me, part of the reason why the Delica works so well with the blade length it has, is it is almost the exact length of my forefinger if I extend it out along the spine of the blade. This allows really fine tip control and the ability to manoeuvre the blade without really thinking about it. Even when not using the knife with my finger along the spine, I find the human brain has an inbuilt sense of control, based on finger length.

And I guess the handle needs to be a different length to offer a comfortable fit to a wide array of hand sizes.

This might also be why bushcraft blades are often recommended to be as long in the blade as the width of your hand.

It is really just as easy to carry a 5” or 6” blade as it is to carry a 3.75”-4” blade. But when I’ve experimented with this myself, I’ve often found the tip and extra blade length can get in the way, depending on what kind of work is being done.

Of course, there’s certainly a place for longer blades, and none of this is to discount your experiences and preferences.

Nor do I have any idea if that was in Sal’s mind when he designed the Delica’s blade length.

But I think it possibly predates the time when legal restrictions on blade length were as widespread as they are today.

Have you tried the Caly 3.5 at all? That seems to offer a lot of blade length for a slim carrying handle.

Thanks Cambertree, that's a good shout as the Caly 3.5 is one I haven't tried to be honest. I did have a Caly Jr years ago but the quality was ropey at best. I probably ought to give the 3.5 a go as, in my experience, modern Spydies are utterly different these days in terms of their quality.

I totally agree with you about a good bushcraft knife. I find having the handle and blade roughly equal gives the best balance and most control. I think that preference is part of the reason I would love to find a folder with similar characteristics. For that reason the Endura would be a winner only it's a bit large for pocket carry.

[Farmer]

It's small, but the Baby Horn is a great knife with a lot of edge(relatively).

Thanks Sumdumguy, that's another to add to the list to look at :)

[JuPaul]

Have you seen the new Astute? It has a ton of blade for the handle length. It's also an awesome design. It's in the budget line, but I'm hopeful we might see an upgraded version eventually.

[JD Spydo]

There are three models I could put in the category of "Big Little Knives" for many of Spyderco's past models especially.
I would go with the Caly Jr., The Dodo and The Swick.

I could also put two in the fixed blade category for being Big Little knives" The Streetbeat, The Ronin, and the ENUFF.

And Welcome to Spyderville :)

[Cambertree]

Thanks Cambertree, that's a good shout as the Caly 3.5 is one I haven't tried to be honest. I did have a Caly Jr years ago but the quality was ropey at best. I probably ought to give the 3.5 a go as, in my experience, modern Spydies are utterly different these days in terms of their quality.

I totally agree with you about a good bushcraft knife. I find having the handle and blade roughly equal gives the best balance and most control. I think that preference is part of the reason I would love to find a folder with similar characteristics. For that reason the Endura would be a winner only it's a bit large for pocket carry.

Cheers, Farmer. :)

Thanks for the thoughtful posts.

I took a pic of the Caly 3.5 with a couple of Delicas for comparison.



It offers quite a bit of blade in a slender handle. Blade length on mine is 86mm/3.37” to a 105mm/4.13” handle.

I believe there’s a LW Caly in the pipeline from Taichung, which should be a very high quality of manufacture.

The other suggestion I was going to make is have you checked out the Wharny Delicas at all?

The blade/handle ratio is roughly the same, but the cutting dynamics are quite different. The blade shape offers very powerful cuts through material like looped up cordage and strapping, and slicing through materials laid on workbenches etc.

Just a thought. :)

Also, slightly OT sorry, but I’m a bit curious as to why UK Customs would confiscate a linerlock Tenacious but not a backlock knife? Is it the dreaded ‘wrist flick’ opening test?

We used to have that almost completely arbitrary ‘test standard’ in Australia too, until reason took hold. I believe Sal and the local Spyderco distributors may have been active behind the scenes in getting it removed.

When I travel, I research the knife carry laws of the countries I’m going to, and if I can legally carry a cutting tool I do so.

When I was in the UK I carried a couple of slipjoints - the Edgematters K390 Pingo and a GEC Crownlifter.

[Hobnob]

Farmer, welcome to the forum. I like your choice for current model. I too really like the Salt 2 SE. That is what I carry most of the time. My other carry is cousin Delica. I don't think an extra few 10th's of an inch would matter much to me.

[Wartstein]

.....
For example the Delica 4 has a cutting edge to handle ratio of only 0.6. Its handle could easily accommodate a blade with another 8mm (0.31”) of edge. Now that might not sound like a lot, ut it would be a significant increase from the 65mm (2.56”) currently on offer in that model.
......
So why do I want this extra edge? Well more cutting edge = better performance at pull cuts. One of the reasons serrated edges often out-perform plain edges is because their geometry means they simply have more cutting edge for the same length of the blade.

Farmer, if you´re looking for a good edge to handle ratio:

One of my absolute favorite models, the Stretch 1, has a ratio of 0.72 (closed length 4.438 " (113mm), edge length 3.188 " (81mm) - for comparison: Delica: Closed length 4.25" (108mm), edge length 2.56" (65mm))
The Stretch 1 is discontinued (there is the Stretch 2 now) but you can still find it.
It does have a choil (you said you would NOT want one), but a pretty "minimal" one.

I second your thoughts about the value of more cutting edge!! Just one of many performance factors of course, but with a longer edge one often times can cut through wider stuff with just one slicing motion, while a shorter edged blade has to be moved back and forth one or several times.
There are even items that might be very hard to cut through with a short edge (think of a melon or something like that).

Plus: Any somewhat experienced knife user can "shorten" a long edge by for example pinch gripping the blade, but no one can make a given edge longer in use... so in a general EDC folder a longer edge for me has only advantages and practically no disadvantage (other than perhaps being illegal in some places or scare non-knife-people more)

Still: With Spyderco I have learned to take a different approach: First I look at the amount of cutting edge a model offers. Then I look at the ergos and grip options if offers. Then I decide if I am fine with the given amount of edge for the scenario I plan the knife using for and if yes, I just appreciate the perfect ergos it most times offers.
For example: The Manix 2 LW for me is a rather small knife. In fact its edge is a bit too short for a general EDC in my use. Still I like that model so much that I actually carry it as a small folder with superior ergos and grip options and very much enjoy it in this role.

[Farmer]

One of my absolute favorite models, the Stretch 1, has a ratio of 0.72 (closed length 4.438 " (113mm), edge length 3.188 " (81mm) - for comparison: Delica: Closed length 4.25" (108mm), edge length 2.56" (65mm))

I second your thoughts about the value of more cutting edge!! Just one of many performance factors of course, but with a longer edge one often times can cut through wider stuff with just one slicing motion, while a shorter edged blade has to be moved back and forth one or several times.
There are even items that might be very hard to cut through with a short edge (think of a melon or something like that).

Plus: Any somewhat experienced knife user can "shorten" a long edge by for example pinch gripping the blade, but no one can make a given edge longer in use... so in a general EDC folder a longer edge for me has only advantages and practically no disadvantage (other than perhaps being illegal in some places or scare non-knife-people more)

Hi Warstein and thanks for your suggestions and thoughts. And nice to know I'm not alone in wanting more cutting edge!

Thanks too for the suggestion of the Stretch 1, which I've never encountered in the flesh. I'll look out for one. It does seem strange the Stretch 2 should actually reduce the cutting edge without good reason.

Interesting point you make about treating the Manix 2 LW as a small knife that just happens to have superior ergos and it's great that it works for you :) But I think no matter how hard I tried, I'd still be thinking about the 'efficiency' of the design and want something else.

[Farmer]

I believe there’s a LW Caly in the pipeline from Taichung, which should be a very high quality of manufacture.

That sounds like one for me to keep an eye out for - thanks!

Also, slightly OT sorry, but I’m a bit curious as to why UK Customs would confiscate a linerlock Tenacious but not a backlock knife? Is it the dreaded ‘wrist flick’ opening test? We used to have that almost completely arbitrary ‘test standard’ in Australia too, until reason took hold. I believe Sal and the local Spyderco distributors may have been active behind the scenes in getting it removed.

When I travel, I research the knife carry laws of the countries I’m going to, and if I can legally carry a cutting tool I do so.

I can only assume it was indeed the dreaded wrist flick :eek: All I know is I received a letter stating it had been confiscated so I haven't bothered importing any others.

These days when travelling abroad I tend to only pack a SAK unless I'm doing something that unequivocally requires something bigger. Then instead of a folder I might pack something like a Mora Clipper if hiking or my Salt 2 if sailing/diving.

[Farmer]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome and great suggestions :)

I think top of the list of knives for me to look out for is the leaf-bladed RockJumper [really hope it makes full use of that handle] and the LW Caly 3.5. Meantime I'll stick with my Salt 2 and wait for the delayed Heinnie UKPK to re-appear.

[bobnikon]

If you want a >1 blade to handle ratio, check out the semi-folding knife. Grandway knives makes a number of them. :)

But as far as Spyderco's go there are lots of different opinions, and quite a few options for more ratio as pointed out in previous posts. I am not discounting your interest or use. I personally don't find an issue with, and frankly really like my Spyderco choil knives. I find I choose them over my other brands that have no choil and more handle to blade ratio. I try to keep them really sharp (within my sharpening limitations) and find the cutting edge I have is enough.

[curlyhairedboy]

Blade-to-handle ratio has always been a bit of a red herring for me. Blade length is dependent on laws/rules, dimensions of the material being cut, etc. Handle length is extremely personal because ergonomics are so individual.

If you've got multiple, different performance criteria that you're aiming to maximize, it seems a little strange to link the two lengths in a ratio and say 'more is better'. It seems to not address the performance targeted in the design of each.

An example: On a knife i'll be gripping hard, I need a handle to be a certain size and no smaller, regardless of how much blade it has. And my needs for blade length are dependent on use - I wouldn't use a Police to carve some softwood into a spatula, because while the handle is generous, the blade is too big for that purpose. Maybe a Police with a dragonfly 2 blade? It would look funny and have very funky ratios, but it'd be perfect for that kind of job.

It seems like a metric that makes reviewing easier, while obscuring some of the design details.

[carrot]

I know that you said liner locks were probably right out because they can be flicked, but the Astute's small shape and Spydiehole position makes it a little difficult to flick, plus you can adjust the pivot tension as you like.

Worth a look, because I think we're approaching that golden 1:1 ratio for packing as much blade in as possible.



I do agree with curlyhairedboy that the internet often makes much ado about blade to handle ratio. It is a spec that demonstrates how absurd knife reviewing has gotten. Still, I understand the desire, as human beings who enjoy clever engineering, to also have the highest efficiency.