12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

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nerdlock
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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby nerdlock » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:16 pm

I have no dog in this debate since I have both knives.

Although I must say that the Delica was one of my first Spydercos and it holds a special place in my heart, So I am partial to siding with it for discussion's sake. And for someone with average asian hands, the ergos of the Delica fits my hand much better than the Native does. I find the blocky edges of the Native slightly uncomfortable. And let's face it, like the observations of the others here, there's really no comparison between the FRN of the Delica and the Native.

aicolainen wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 2:47 am

Fit & finish: Delica for me. I know this might be contrary to the popular opinion, but except for the blade being perfectly centered on the Native, and slightly less so on the Salt, I like everything about the Salt more. It's smoother, the FRN has a much better feel than the hollow feeling LEGO-ish FRN on the Native, and even the color is off (warmer) compared to what I've become used to with the Seki Salts.

aicolainen perfectly describes how I feel about the "FRN" on the Native. Kinda toylike and hollow. The Delica somehow feels "denser" despite being more thinner than the Native scales. I don't actually notice these scale differences when using the knives though.

In defense of the Native, I really, really like the blade shape and the strong tip. But then to be fair, I'm more partial to the Leaf/Spear-type blade shapes versus the Military-style/humped blades. Maybe it's just placebo but the design makes me feel more confident in using the tip of the blade for more delicate work.

So in conclusion, I can comfortably choose one or the other depending on what I need the knife for. Good points raised by Doc Dan though, I feel no intent for trolling in his post.

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby prndltech » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:17 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:02 pm
prndltech wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:52 pm
...Just pressing the finger on an edge won't cut you if there is no back and force motion.
You and I have 2 different definitions of the word sharp :D

I don't think so, my friend. It really is no problem to choke up on the very edge of a knife, even if its really sharp (easily shaving, or let's say at least a sharp Spyderco factory edge).

I won't encourage anyone to do so, but I and as I know not too few experienced knife users do that quite often.
Its just physics.
An edge is NOT a laser cutter beam.
As said, in medieval times they grabbed sharp swords (at least paper cutting sharp) with bare hands on the cutting edge and smashed an opponent with the hilt or crossguard. A lot of centrifugal forces there, which are not present when just doing so with a foldee
Factory edges aren’t sharp by my standards. I sharpen knives out of the box before they go into the pocket. I’m sure people do it, but not me. As for people in history... well, there’s a reason our steels and sharpening tools have done nothing but improved over time.
- Shannon

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Wartstein » Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:34 pm

prndltech wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:17 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 10:02 pm
prndltech wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sun Sep 27, 2020 9:52 pm
...Just pressing the finger on an edge won't cut you if there is no back and force motion.
Factory edges aren’t sharp by my standards. I sharpen knives out of the box before they go into the pocket. I’m sure people do it, but not me. As for people in history... well, there’s a reason our steels and sharpening tools have done nothing but improved over time.

That's fine of course. :)

But people (not all of course) who really use knives do choke up on even VERY sharp edges nowadays, not only in history.
I did a poll once on this(which I won't link here, cause the discussions there got a bit out of control, with folks bashing things they obviously never tried for themselves): About 10 % of the people who voted there do choke up on the actual cutting edge (and I am not talking just pinch grip of the blade). It's a usefull technique if one knows what to do.

As for the historic sword fighting technique where people grab the very edge of a sword and bash the opponent with the hilt (called murderstroke, and used for fighting heavily armoured people where a sword cut could not actually cut through the plates of the armour): They do this still nowadays for demo purposes, and while admittedly the swords are just paper cutting sharp, the force that comes to the fingers when using the sword like an axe while grabbed on the edge bare handed is a lot higher than when just grabbing a knife on the edge.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Sonorum » Mon Sep 28, 2020 12:45 am

Doc Dan wrote:
Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:03 pm
The Delica is a better overall design than the Native. I think the Native was originally designed for Walmart or something.
Hi Dan, I'm going to start my reply by saying I've never liked the Delica and that a Native was my main edc for a long time so I'm definitely biased. I also don't like arguing for the sake of arguing and I hope this reply isn't perceived as that.

1] The Delica is slimmer.
True if you only count across the back. The Native is shorter and narrower so it is, in a way, slimmer in some dimensions.
2] The Delica has a thinner blade and is a much better slicer.
True. I haven't felt that the Native is bad slicer though.
3] The Delica has a skinning/hunting style blade and excels at that. The Native, not so much.
For many such as me this isn't applicable. I have skinned an animal once and that was with a Mora fixed blade. If one is better at being a skinner, is it a better knife or just a better skinner?
4] The Delica has a full length grip. The Native has a half grip that requires the use of a choil.
With a Delica I can feel like I'm squeezing my self of the but end of the handle. I would argue that the choil is part of the Natives grip by design. Saying that the Natives grip is small because you only grip the frn part doesn't make any sense to me. Do you do the same with the Dragonfly? Or the Cricket? Or the Chaparall?
5] The Delica has no choil to snag on things that are being cut.
The plunge grind meets the kick on the ricasso in the same way. I don't really see your point.
6] The Delica has a proper finger guard.
And the choil is improper as a finger guard? I haven't felt that one is safer than the other.
7] The Delica's FRN feels better in hand than the Native's FRCP.
As Wartstein said, it is FRN. In regards to hand feel I guess everyone is different and stating one is better than the other isn't always applicable. I like the Native.
8] The Delica is more contoured vs the blockiness of the Native.
Yes sure.
9] The Delica fits the hand better when using a saber/hammer grip for hard cuts.
I disagree. The height of the handle makes it less prone to twisting. I also don't like the jimping on back of the Delica.
10] The Delica is generally cheaper.
Sure
11] The Delica has a better variety of steel choices and more to come.
I agree, I'm not one to buy multiples of the same model but a K390 Native would change that. None of the other K390 variants will do that.
12] The Delica comes in more colors.
Yeah that's also a bit boring. I bought a dealer exclusive to be able to get one i orange. Guess which dealer? :rolleyes:

I don't agree that the Delica is a better knife. I also don't claim the Native to be a better knife. It suits me better though.
/ David

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby shunsui » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:33 am

I'm not a big fan of either knife, but I've got a few Delicas and sold the only Native I ever had. The Native just didn't work in my hand. Ergos. Odd harmonics or something.

I'm an Endura guy and the Delica comes in handy sometimes when you need something small for the clothes your wearing, or the place your visiting.

I've got one Para3 and I think it feels better in my hand, but doesn't carry as well in my pocket as the Delica.

Spyderco's got something for everyone, I tend to stick to the models I like and don't bother with most of the others. I do love it when things like the Waterway, Siren, and Amalgam come out of nowhere.

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby curlyhairedboy » Mon Sep 28, 2020 6:37 am

I only have the 40th anniversary native and don't currently own any delicas, but I know the native fits my hands better than the delica.

I think I like the sage 5 LW more than both in terms of comfort.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Tanto PM2, Serrated Shaman
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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby SDCowboy » Mon Sep 28, 2020 7:31 am

That Native 5 is quite simply the best feeling blade I've ever held in my hands, so I strongly disagree.

Also the lack of a finger choil makes the Delica an instant non-buy for me.

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Sonorum » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:44 am

Image
/ David

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Doc Dan » Mon Sep 28, 2020 8:56 am

Good discussion everyone. I like well reasoned discussions and this one is going well, for the most part.

I have a native and it never fit my big mitt. Some like the Nstive and I get that. the N5 is the best iteration of the Native (1 through 5) I believe. The Delica has more of what I want in a knife this size. Of course the Endura, Manix, and others fit my hand better, but they are not really pocket knives.
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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Sonorum » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:06 am

I feel like the Native is more of a work knife where the Delica is more of an EDC knife. If one were to force them in different directions.
/ David

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Wartstein » Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:23 am

Sonorum wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:06 am
I feel like the Native is more of a work knife where the Delica is more of an EDC knife. If one were to force them in different directions.
This is a real interesting discussion and shows how different people sometimes are in their preferences and assessments (and all of those are fine or course).

This is another example for that: For me the Delica clearly is the better work knife, while the Native lends itself more towards EDC (though that´s a very wide ranged term):
Why?
For me "work knife" means that I do a larger amount of actual work with it, and concerning that in my use the Delica blows the Native out of the water any day of the week (I do have experience with both models):
- The Delica is a better slicer and actual cutter (thinner blade, but still strong)
- It offers 10% more cutting edge, which comes in handy in a lot of tasks if doing a lot of cuts in a row
- The Delica has a pointier, but still strong tip (as far as I recall, don´t have my Native anymore)
- The Delica offers (for me) two perfect grip options (on the actual handle and choked up on the Ricasso), this is nice to have when doing a lot of work and wanting to change grip from time to time. The Native has - again, for me - only one good grip option (finger in the choil)
- The Delica (and btw also the Chap) feels more stable in my hand (less tendency to shift and roll) when actually performing a bit harder use tasks (the Native feels great when just holding the knife)

All the above points come into play when actually working a lot with the knife, while in EDC carry and one or two occasional cuts per day the Native is just fine.

Just my 2c of course.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby TomAiello » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:16 am

Wartstein, do you ever used fixed blades as 'work knives' (your category definition)?

In general if I know I'm going to be doing a lot of cutting with a knife, I intentionally go pick up a fixed blade for the job.

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby JRinFL » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:35 am

When faced with the question "which is better, the Native or the Delica?" the answer is: yes.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder: Wharnie for the whin! Friends call me Jim. As do my foes.

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Sonorum » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:42 am

Wartstein wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:23 am
I want to start this with saying that this is how the knives feel to me.

For me the Native is a work knife in this sense:
Image

For other things I used to carry this at work:
Image
/ David

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Sonorum » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:43 am

JRinFL wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:35 am
When faced with the question "which is better, the Native or the Delica?" the answer is: yes.
:rolleyes: :D
/ David

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Wartstein » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:49 am

Sonorum wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:42 am
Wartstein wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 9:23 am
I want to start this with saying that this is how the knives feel to me.

For me the Native is a work knife in this sense:

For other things I used to carry this at work:

Good points, and you are right on your choices 100% :)

Still, and maybe even especially for the "Stanley knife tasks" I personally would choose the Delica (WHARNIE if I could!!) over the Native.
Total personal preference of course and I´d be more than fine with a Native too.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Wartstein » Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:50 am

TomAiello wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:16 am
Wartstein, do you ever used fixed blades as 'work knives' (your category definition)?

In general if I know I'm going to be doing a lot of cutting with a knife, I intentionally go pick up a fixed blade for the job.

In that case I actually picked up the definition "work knife" from Sonorum, but I do use the term too!

Yes, of course, I prefer to use fixed blades as "work knives" when I know I´m going to do a lot of cutting!
My main ones are (from small to big) a White River backpacker pro, a Enzo Trapper ffg, a great tool steel blade Pancake made for me, a Mora companion and a Boker Plus Rold (Esee 6 size).

But on quite some occasions I don´t bring a fixed blade and/or there is no good one available. When working on a mountain hut for example I use the Spydie in my pocket or when tasks arise I did not see coming beforehand.

It´s just if I only could choose between Delica and Native for a work knife both would be poor choices (though being great folders!), but I´d go for the Delica 100%
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby anycal » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:04 am

I have both, more than one in each, like them both, prefer the Native 5.

Some things I don't agree with based on what I remember reading in these pages.

- I don't see how the Delica excels in skinning over Native. I haven't used either for this, but used a fixed blade this weekend, so the task is still fresh in my mind. Three things where the Native may be better. More belly. No ramp getting in the way. And as you have to move your hand, whether to cut in different angle, or fatigue, the Native has two 'skinning' index finger over spine, pinch grips - with choil, and no choil. For the other skinning grips, I don't see one having advantage over the other.

- Since it was mentioned twice, the Delica does not offer 10% cutting edge. On paper, the cutting edge is advertised as 65mm vs 62mm - 4 % at best. My actual measurement is 65mm vs 64mm, so less than 2%.

- I don't get the grip stability, rolling argument. But if I understand it correctly, the Native, due to it's taller and wider handle, definely rolls less in my grip.
Last edited by anycal on Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby xceptnl » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:34 am

Dan, I happen to agree with many of your points when comparing the Delica 4 to the current FRCP or G-10 Native. Had we a choice to compare the original FRN Native models (assuming they were ever available in FFG) then this discussion would have been much more in depth (in my opinion). The 2013 forum Native was the last one I purchased and after using it, I no longer had a desire to continue seeking that model for use or collection purposes.
Image
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Re: 12 reasons why the Delica is better than the Native

Postby Wartstein » Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:36 am

anycal wrote:
Mon Sep 28, 2020 11:04 am


Some things I don't agree with based on what I remember reading in these pages.

- I don't see how the Delica excels in skinning over Native. ...

- Since it was mentioned twice, the Delica does not offer 10% cutting edge. On paper, the cutting edge is advertised as 65mm vs 62mm - 4 % at best. My actual measurement is 65mm vs 64mm, so less than 2%.

- I don't get the grip stability, rolling argument. But if I understand it correctly, the Native, due to it's taller and wider handle, definely rolls less in my grip.
Well put points.

- I know nothing about skinning, can´t weigh in on that

- I was the one stating that the Delica would have about 10 % more cutting edge:
My Native had an edge of 61mm (also the number on the Spyderco page), my Delica 66mm. That would be an increase from Native to Delica of 8.3 %, so I figure "about 10 %" is ok. Since the Delica on the Spyderco page "only" has 65mm of edge, you are right: The increase from Native to Delica is, given that, only 6.6 %. (Those exact numbers do not matter anyway, I could notice in use that the Delica offers more edge)

- Native less stable and more prone to "rolling" than the Delica at least in my hand:
Something I NEVER would have guessed when just holding the knives or just cutting paper, but true for me when for example whittling harder wood or cutting thicker card board. The Native is just not as stable, especially the index finger in the choil not too good supported and it starts to move around more than the Delica (btw.: I recall Sal saying something along the lines that he kept the "points" of the Endura handle also on the Endela, since this would prevent "rolling" - don´t know though what HE means with that term, but the Delica has that "points" too).

And funny: Later on I found two or three youtube "reviews" where people found that "moving in hand" thing with the Native too. See here for example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWvyjOsCRj4&t=792s (starting at about 12:15). Might be just true for some particular hand sizes, don´t know.. :)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40


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