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Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:56 am
by Jull
Hi,
I have not a lot expérience in knife and i have an interogation about the tip of the Strech 2 straight spine.

Like PM 2 it's "clip point" and full flat ground,so tip not the most stronger i know.
I know it's not a dagger and not disigned for that, i just asking this for my personal mind and like too know my knife.

I will talk about SD but not recomanded too do this and same, it's just for perssonal mind not really for do something like this.

SO:

I have Strech 2 straight spine, the tip wasn't the most stronger, and i want too know how i can do with it.
Particulary in SD scenario, for stabing task.

Or maybe if i'm a burtcher...
:) for cuting my pork meat,i want to stabing pork with all strenght i have, tip blade hurt side bone and make twisting motion does he can broken?

This knife can be considered apropriate to do this task?

Strech 2 straight spine / PM2
Annotation 2020-09-10 181047.png
Or here at 1,34 min https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mr0LqNU7mOk


Thanx

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:39 am
by Wartstein
Hi Jull,

in my experience: Yes, if you hit hard bone with a tip as fine as the one on the SS Stretch or the PM2 it certainly can (and most likely will) dull the tip.
Don´t know at what level of tip damage you´d consider a tip to be actually broken, but in doing a task like you describe at least the fine point at the very end of the tip certainly will snap or bend/roll (partly depending on the particular steel). But to be clear, I am talking about a very short section of the tip, might even hard to be seen without magnification, but can certainly be felt when lightly poking the finger for example.
And: When doing crazy things you certainly CAN snap a substantial part of the tip either!)

That being said:

- It is quite easy to repair/ reprofile / sharpen again a dulled tip
- On ALL of my Spydies (all users) tips do dull eventually and I have to repair or at least sharpen them
- An initially very fine tip that gets dulled will in many cases STILL be as pointy as a more robust, but less pointy tip is in the first place

Now: If you don´t need a very fine tip in the first place and do a lot of stabbing tasks, SS Stretch or PM2 are probably not the best choices, but rather something like a Shaman, sabre grind Endura or Pac Salt 2 (the H1 version!).

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:43 am
by Bloke
Jull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:56 am
stabing pork with all strenght i have
Image

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:00 am
by The Deacon
Can only give you my personal philosophy. If I carry a knife for self defense, I think of it the same way I think of a motorcycle helmet. That is to say, it's just an expendable piece of protective equipment. If it saves my life once, it's done its job and will be replaced before there is a "next time". If I'm processing meat, I will almost always have more appropriate tools for the job than a pocket knife at my disposal and, if I don't, then I refrain from doing silly things with the only tool I have and use finesse rather than brute force.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:23 am
by Jull
The Deacon wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:00 am
If I'm processing meat, I will almost always have more appropriate tools for the job than a pocket knife at my disposal and, if I don't, then I refrain from doing silly things with the only tool I have and use finesse rather than brute force.
*

Yep, total agree, pork was just a joke for describe my thought and agree too with the "helmet" no problemes to chanche my spyderco if broken in SD situation, but if you broken the tip in this scénario you lost stabing possibility.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:28 am
by carrot
As someone who has watched plenty of CSI I can tell you with certainty that even if you broke the tip you can still stab just fine.

The tips on many Spydercos particularly more afi oriented ones have been described as "splinter picker tips". This is a trade-off. More precise, sharper tips, for more precise, sharper work. But hard use or abuse can break the tip, usually 1mm or less but in some really silly circumstances maybe a 2-3cm. Spyderco or any experienced knife sharpener/customizer with a belt sander can put a new tip back on, and you will have completed the journey of customizing your knife!

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:38 am
by Jull
Sorry if i say something wrong, but i think the Endura was considering good for SD task /stabing and he have thigness near the Strech 2 straight spine, maybe tip litlle more stronger...

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:12 am
by araneae
Mr. Janich gets by with a delica for SD.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:21 am
by The Deacon
Jull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:23 am
Yep, total agree, pork was just a joke for describe my thought and agree too with the "helmet" no problemes to chanche my spyderco if broken in SD situation, but if you broken the tip in this scénario you lost stabing possibility.
Going to depend on how the person is dressed and where you stab them, In a lot of cases, it doesn;t take a really sharp tip to stab someone. Worked in a prison where one inmate killed another with a #2 pencil.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:22 am
by Wartstein
Jull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:38 am
Sorry if i say something wrong, but i think the Endura was considering good for SD task /stabing and he have thigness near the Strech 2 straight spine, maybe tip litlle more stronger...
The ffg Endura tip indeed should be a bit stronger, due to the spine drop towards the tip than the SS Stretch (the tip of the sabre grind Endura is very robust anyway, but as a trade off less usefull in finer tasks)

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:06 am
by Abyss_Fish
As long as you aren’t prying most models should be fine. The less prominent a tip the more stable though I suppose. The wharny seki models come to mind, they’re probably the most balanced between piercing ability and strength. But I dunno you could stab brick walls with a spydiechef all day long and the tip wouldn’t break, it’s just not a great piercer.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:09 pm
by Jull
True i have look endura sabre grind, thigness and tip are really stronger than SS.
So Strech 2 straight spine, not really good for SD task corect?

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:59 pm
by Wartstein
Jull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:09 pm
True i have look endura sabre grind, thigness and tip are really stronger than SS.
So Strech 2 straight spine, not really good for SD task corect?
I know nothing about sd with knives, but Spydercos probably most dedicated self defense knife actually has a pretty fine tip as far as I know (Yojimbo, see here: https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/C85GBBK2/1840)

I´d also guess sd with a knife is really not all about stabbing someone, but even more so about disabling an attacker by slicing / severing certain tendons or the like of an opponent. For that a fine.pointy tip would work probably better than a more robust one.
Depends on the particular knife-sd-system one is trained in I figure. But again, I have no personal experience or training at all.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:05 pm
by James Y
If you’re discussing Spyderco knives in relation to self-defense, I have a thread titled ‘Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread‘ in the Off-Topic sub-forum here. On page two of the thread, I posted a video of a Medical Detectives/Forensic Files episode titled “Pinned by the Evidence,” in which someone used a knife (an old SE Spyderco Endura) to defend himself, and the actual knife that was in evidence is shown. You can see for yourself whether the tip of a knife that was actually used in SD is intact or deformed.

I also saw a televised trial years ago on the now-defunct Court TV channel, in which a citizen used a knife to defend himself against a physical assault by a hardened gang member. Again, the actual knife that was used was shown in evidence. It was a DLC-coated, combo-edge Military model. In the moments it was shown on TV, the Military’s tip looked to have had very little if any tip damage. And the Military is a fine-tipped knife. Unfortunately, I don’t think there is any way to access footage of that trial, as it was aired live.

It’s also possible that any tip deformation (if any at all) either knife may have had was already there before they were ever used in SD.

There was also a news story in which a man saved his young son who was being attacked by a mountain lion with a Spyderco Caly 3 (IIRC). That knife was also shown, and other than the animal’s blood on it, the blade appeared intact.

I mention these, because there was actual visual proof of Spyderco knives that were used in real SD situations, as opposed to only speculation about what would happen to the knife.

Jim

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:51 pm
by Cambertree
Jull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:09 pm
True i have look endura sabre grind, thigness and tip are really stronger than SS.
So Strech 2 straight spine, not really good for SD task corect?
Michael Janich has used a Delica and Endura for years as part of his SD tool selection, I believe.

The straight spined Stretch is no thinner than those knives at the tip, and probably thicker than his reground Delicas.

That should probably answer any concerns you have.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:02 pm
by Wartstein
Cambertree wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:51 pm
Jull wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 2:09 pm
True i have look endura sabre grind, thigness and tip are really stronger than SS.
So Strech 2 straight spine, not really good for SD task corect?
Michael Janich has used a Delica and Endura for years as part of his SD tool selection, I believe.

The straight spined Stretch is no thinner than those knives at the tip, and probably thicker than his reground Delicas.

That should probably answer any concerns you have.

Rather nitpicky ;), but I´d say the straight spined Stretch tip is no thinner indeed than an Endura at the tip when one looks at the spines of the blade.
The Endura tip (and even more so the tip of the regular Stretch) should be a bit stronger though due to the drop of the spine towards the tip, which makes it less "pointy" when looked at the tip at the flat (and not the spine) of the blade (I think it even was Sals intention to give Endura 4 and Delica 4 that kind of "spine drop" to make the tip a bit more robust in that models?)

Again, rather theoretical, and I´d guess not relevant for sd at all if one deals with an SS Stretch or Endura tip...

I know nothing at all about sd with knives, but just instinctively I´d probably take the SS Stretch over the Endura if I had to choose (and then still avoid any knife fight... :( )

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:21 am
by Cambertree
Wartstein wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 11:02 pm
Rather nitpicky ;), but I´d say the straight spined Stretch tip is no thinner indeed than an Endura at the tip when one looks at the spines of the blade.
The Endura tip (and even more so the tip of the regular Stretch) should be a bit stronger though due to the drop of the spine towards the tip, which makes it less "pointy" when looked at the tip at the flat (and not the spine) of the blade (I think it even was Sals intention to give Endura 4 and Delica 4 that kind of "spine drop" to make the tip a bit more robust in that models?)

Again, rather theoretical, and I´d guess not relevant for sd at all if one deals with an SS Stretch or Endura tip...

I know nothing at all about sd with knives, but just instinctively I´d probably take the SS Stretch over the Endura if I had to choose (and then still avoid any knife fight... :( )
Yes, you’re no doubt right on the relative tip robustness, Wartstein.

And even more right when you alluded at the end of your post to the best defence in a knife fight is not being there in the first place, if at all possible.

Any hunter can attest to the fact that puncturing a mammal with a hole, or multiple holes is no guarantee of an immediate stop - even when vital organs are successfully targeted.

I think this explains why we often hear of criminal stabbing cases where dozens of stab wounds were inflicted. The perpetrator no doubt expected one or two penetrations to stop the victim cold, when that’s mostly not going to happen.

I once put a .308 cal 180 grain Nosler Partition softnose projectile through the heart and both lungs of a large Sambar stag from about 25 metres away, and the stag still ran a couple of hundred metres before dropping.

So I guess this is why experts like Janich focus on slashing strikes that will remove the ability of an assailant to operate the motor functions that they need to continue the assault.

I read a book once by James Ayres, an ex Special Forces Green Beret on ‘tactical folders’. He cited a bunch of cases where a robust tactical folder aided someone in an emergency situation.

One example was a woman working in a shipping container near the Twin Towers on 9/11. The shockwave of the buildings collapsing overturned the shipping container, trapping her inside. A passing fireman heard her cries for help hours later, and used his folding knife and a chunk of concrete to baton into the Cor-ten steel wall of the container, and prise open a gap that allowed her to be rescued.

I doubt the folder was in a very serviceable state afterwards, but it successfully did the job that was required of it.

There were quite a few other examples like this.

After reading these cases, however unlikely they may be, I wondered about the capacity of my usual EDC cutting tools to handle a similar situation.

I realised that even if the tip broke I would still have a hand tool with a hardened steel blade which would probably do whatever digging or cutting or batoning task that was required of it, to get me or someone else to safety.

At the end of the book, Ayres had a list of some specific folders and fixed blades he recommended. High on the list was the Spyderco Military with its ‘splinter picker’ tip!

As The Deacon said, if a knife saves your life, it’s done its job and paid for itself many times over - whatever condition it ends up in.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:58 am
by Jull
Ok, thanks for intelligent answers guys! :)

I think i understand better what i need for my knife, like you say; Thin or strong tip/blade have PRO and CON, and about SD the knife choice depend your tactics you want to opperate.

So like i say on top, i'm not really want a knife dedicate for fight, just a good ONE knife (because i want just one:), for edc, eat, prepare food but if i have a knife all days in my pocket i want one capable fight to slice or stab correctly, not because i really envisaging SD situation, but i think it's logic he can do this too.

Maybe the Manix 2 LW maybe a better choice for this, a good allround and solid i think, Endura maybe the best choice for me but i not really in love with aestetic, but i understand spyderco disign was for performance and not only aestetics.
Pm2 really good too, maybe not a good "staber"

So i dont know if i chance my strech :)

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:28 am
by Cambertree
Sure, if you think a LW Manix will give you more confidence due to it’s slightly more robust blade, then go for it.

I don’t have one, but my Cruwear and 52100 G10 Manixes feel pretty stout and secure if you were to use a stabby motion on something.

I personally wouldn’t have any doubts about the SS Stretch either, though.

That book I referred to earlier is called Survival Knives: How to Choose And Use The Right Blade, by James Morgan Ayres.

You might find it interesting.

I went back and checked the reference I mentioned earlier about the Spyderco Military, and Ayres said he actually has used the Military for over 15 years, and it is usually his main EDC. And this is coming from a guy who you would think would favour heavily overbuilt folders.

So I wouldn’t really worry about the SS Stretch not being able to protect you in a one off SD scenario.

Re: Tip solidity?

Posted: Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:38 am
by Surfingringo
Jull wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:58 am
Ok, thanks for intelligent answers guys! :)

I think i understand better what i need for my knife, like you say; Thin or strong tip/blade have PRO and CON, and about SD the knife choice depend your tactics you want to opperate.

So like i say on top, i'm not really want a knife dedicate for fight, just a good ONE knife (because i want just one:), for edc, eat, prepare food but if i have a knife all days in my pocket i want one capable fight to slice or stab correctly, not because i really envisaging SD situation, but i think it's logic he can do this too.

Maybe the Manix 2 LW maybe a better choice for this, a good allround and solid i think, Endura maybe the best choice for me but i not really in love with aestetic, but i understand spyderco disign was for performance and not only aestetics.
Pm2 really good too, maybe not a good "staber"

So i dont know if i chance my strech :)
Didn’t we all at one point...didn’t we all... :rolleyes: :p :spyder: