S35vn on the Tenacious...what does it mean?

[Spyderman91]

I'm going to be honest...

Initially, I thought the steel upgrade was sick, but after seeing the price at almost one hundred dollars. I'm not seeing the point really especially considering the tenacious is supposed to be a "budget" knife. At that price you can get a lw native 5, lil native, **** even a tad bit more can get you a pm2 or para 3 which are all made in Golden Colorado.

I know some of you will say, but "the byrd line". While I have not tried any byrds, and I have no doubt they are a great value. I feel any knife above 65 bucks cannot really be labeled a "budget" knife. Maybe compared to a Strider SMF yeah.. but "normies" would have trouble spending 15 bucks on a knife let alone 100.

Back in 2016 my tenacious was about 40 bucks and it was the most expensive knife I owned. It also came with g10 and skeletonized liners, which was completely badass. I took that thing every where for over two years until it got confiscated by TSA. As soon as I came back from vacation I knew I wanted a new Spyderco. I saved up and went to my local Sporting Goods store, and settled on a pm2 the rest is history.

None of which would of happen if I was not gifted the tenacious. I loved it so much I almost bought a second one before it got confiscated! I would of just been regular a schmoe buying whatever knife looked "cool", and was "cheap". My experience with my tenacious completely opened my eyes to Spyderco, and "well made knives". Now here I am... Sitting on 3 custom Spydies, a tree rex and a bunch of bad blades.

[Pancake]

Living in the US has some benefits. I don't think many forumites from US really know the price situation in Europe.
For basic VG-10 Delica you are looking at +- 100 €.
PM2 is like 170€
My Manix 2 REX45 was like 175? Not sure.

Lamnia has a price for Tenacious LW for 112 €. And it has S35VN. It's the same price as Delica, but with better steel, it's more hand filling.
My Bow River was more or less on par with Waterway. And if I have to compare fit and finish on Bow River to my Police 4, Japanese are really not 100 % better, considering the price.
I think this will be a good experiment. Maybe I will pick one up, maybe not. I am limiting myself to 1 or 2 knives per year, so I am not going to jump on every new flashy thing that comes out. I'll wait. This is a standard production item, no need to rush.

[steelcity16]

I'm going to be honest...

Initially, I thought the steel upgrade was sick, but after seeing the price at almost one hundred dollars. I'm not seeing the point really especially considering the tenacious is supposed to be a "budget" knife. At that price you can get a lw native 5, lil native, **** even a tad bit more can get you a pm2 or para 3 which are all made in Golden Colorado.

Again, for some people like myself and Evil D, I believe "the point" is as simple as loving the design and wanting to see it in upgraded steels. COO is not really part of the equation. If I could only have one knife in S35VN out of the Tenacious LW, the Native LW, the Manix LW, and Para 3 LW, I would choose the Tenacious LW because I prefer that model/design to the other 3. The fit and finish will be perfectly fine for a working user knife. All four are work knives, not heirloom pieces. The Tenacious LW has as good or better fit and finish than the Para 3 LW and Manix LW in my opinion. It is also screw construction, unlike the Manix LW.

Not seeing the point of a premium Tenacious with an upgraded steel would be like saying you don't see the point to a $203.00 Maxamet Manix LW when the base version is $101.50 and supposed to be a "budget" Golden made folder design. People like different designs for what they are and will pay a premium for upgraded steels. Whether it is a $50 premium for S35VN over 8Cr13MoV, or a $100 premium for Maxamet over BD1N.

[VooDooChild]

...
Its like the people who bash Harbor Freight and then get stuff from Home Depot and Lowe's that are no better, and oftentimes worse. Harbor Freight has A LOT of awesome stuff at great prices. Sure there may be some junk here or there, especially on newer items, but they CQI just like Spyderco and improve the quality over time. But so many people will say its all junk. To me though, if prices are equal, i'd still take Pittsburgh over Husky or Kobalt on a lot of tools.

I think cheap tools have their place for people who dont need them often. But people who make a living off of their tools arent buying cheap. They just dont hold up. Making industry standard upgrades after they are common place is barely cqi.

Makita, among others, innovates and does what I would say is good cqi. Theres a reason they cost 5 times as much.

Splitting hairs... maybe. Eventually you should get to a point where it doesnt matter. A cnc machine is a cnc machine regardless of where it is located. But you have to start with good engineering. Then have quality materials. Finally you just cant get around cheap production cost, or bad business practices.

For something as simple as a knife, Im not really worried. Theres not much that can be messed up. But for the same price, I would rather buy something made in the factory down the road than half way around the world.

[steelcity16]

This is the most significant knife of the 2020 for Spyderco in my opinion. Bringing a premium US Steel in their flagship China folder was a bold undertaking and had been in the works for some time as I recall a few comments here and there from Sal about Eric working with the Chinese factory to bring new US steels over there. Many people have been asking for this for many years and it finally has happened.

I thought the Cruwear Delica and the Cru-Carta Shaman were Spyderco's most significant knives of 2019 for perspective. Bringing Cruwear to Seki was an experiment gone right as those Delicas sold out same day at every dealer they hit. We now have seen S30V, S90V, and S35VN over there as well. I am excited to see more models in these steels like next week's DLT Delica Cruwear exclusive and the Pink S30V Delicas from this reveal. And the Cru-carta Shaman was really an incredible success. Bringing Micarta back into the lineup for the first time in years with a nice matte finish and pairing it with a great steel like Cruwear. People are clamoring for more Micarta and I suspect that the Z-Wear Shaman will be just as difficult to get as the Cru-carta Shaman, even with the higher numbers being produced.

In all of these cases, these models came about due to years of requests of the forum members and knife community. I am glad to see Spyderco continue to take huge risks to make all of our dreams come true! I hope this new S35VN Tenacious LW sells well at this price and we this experiment extended to other models (Resilience) and other US Steels (Cruwear).

[cali]

What is the point of manufacturing in China if it is not cheaper than in a manufacurers country?
Buck Vantage S30V, Kershaw Blur S30V, both made in USA, are cheaper than Tenacious S35VN made in China.

[RamZar]

Is the Chinese-made Tenacious subject to tariffs because the $98.00 price seems high? The US-made Para3 with S30V/FRN is also $98.00, the US-made Native5 with S30V(S35VN)/FRN is $105.00 and the Taiwan-made Chaparral with XHP/FRN is $95.90.

[ugaarguy]

Is the Chinese-made Tenacious subject to tariffs because the $98.00 price seems high? The US-made Para3 with S30V/FRN is also $98.00, the US-made Native5 with S30V(S35VN)/FRN is $105.00 and the Taiwan-made Chaparral with XHP/FRN is $95.90.

Yes, the price does seem high, I'd also like to know why.

What is the point of manufacturing in China if it is not cheaper than in a manufacurers country?
Buck Vantage S30V, Kershaw Blur S30V, both made in USA, are cheaper than Tenacious S35VN made in China.

I agree. Even if I liked the Tenacious design better than the Native 5 LW, I'd still buy the Native 5 LW because at the $100 price point it's not just a tool. A $20-$30 knife like Byrd is just a tool. If I can afford to spend to $80 or more on a knife, even one that I use a tool, I'm supporting manufacturing in my home country or in an allied country.

[Tgmr05]

The tenacious has been a well built knife. Now it comes with a better steel. The question is, 5 years from now will folks wish they bought it. I have seen a few inexpensive yet very usable well built/designed knifes over the years that were offered in a much better steel on a limited basis. A couple I now wish I had purchased. This tenacious appears to have all the qualities of being one of those.

[Rp5]

I don't think a $98 price point is high. There's a few S35VN knives that go for $80-$100, but most have equal or higher MSRPs. Maybe S35VN Tenacious gets better discounts in the future, but brand and material combination means online dealers can charge a bit more and they'll still sell.

[soc_monki]

Is the Chinese-made Tenacious subject to tariffs because the $98.00 price seems high? The US-made Para3 with S30V/FRN is also $98.00, the US-made Native5 with S30V(S35VN)/FRN is $105.00 and the Taiwan-made Chaparral with XHP/FRN is $95.90.

Para 3 lw is bd1n not S30v. And to me the price is not too high. Take Civivi for example. I do have some of their knives, and they are good, but the tenacious is as good or better quality wise, and one of the most expensive models (Incite) comes with shred carbon fiber/copper or gold scales and 9cr/10cr Damascus and comes in at $100. I think Damascus is ugly and the shred cf scales don't do it for me, and the tenacious has thicker liners, better steel, and I know the quality is high. Tenacious all day!

Just my opinion!

[soc_monki]

As far as price goes, the Tenacious models are great knives. If I won a free knife in a raffle or whatever and had a choice between this S35VN Tenacious LW and a hypothetical S35VN Manix LW or Para 3 LW or Native LW, I'd choose the Tenacious LW. Its just a tool, and I like the design better, so why go with the Manix, Para 3 or Native just because they say Golden, CO Earth? I'm not buying it to fondle and obsess over fit and finish. I've had probably well over 100 Spydercos pass through my possession at this point and I've never once thought twice about fit or finish on them, including any of the Chinese models and Byrd models. Buy what looks good and feels good and matches to the tasks you want to use it for. Don't get caught up in COO. So for me, I'm fine with it costing the same as the LW Golden models. There is a cost with shipping the US steel over there, then shipping the knives back over here that likely offsets any descreased labor costs.

Its like the people who bash Harbor Freight and then get stuff from Home Depot and Lowe's that are no better, and oftentimes worse. Harbor Freight has A LOT of awesome stuff at great prices. Sure there may be some junk here or there, especially on newer items, but they CQI just like Spyderco and improve the quality over time. But so many people will say its all junk. To me though, if prices are equal, i'd still take Pittsburgh over Husky or Kobalt on a lot of tools.

Harbor Freight is OK for wrenches and sockets, their jacks are pretty awesome as well, and there are gems throughout the store, but most of their stuff is plain crap and not much cheaper than higher quality tools.

They do have a decent warranty on most of it though... Kobalt is overpriced but husky is actually reasonable. I'd choose Husky over both. And have!

[normal]

I think the price is absolutely fair. It is the exact same price as a Para 3 LWT that uses BD1N, which is not as good as s35vn. It is one of my favorite steels and is used by most of the Chinese manufacturers in their higher end knives. And I appreciate the design. It is only .09" larger closed than the Para 3 LWT, but it has .8" more cutting edge. That is pretty remarkable. The liner lock is a good middle ground between the backlock and compression lock IMO. I will definitely be getting one.

[steelcity16]

Harbor Freight is OK for wrenches and sockets, their jacks are pretty awesome as well, and there are gems throughout the store, but most of their stuff is plain crap and not much cheaper than higher quality tools.

This isn't a Harbor Freight thread so I won't get into a huge debate on here, but saying most of their stuff is crap is just plain false. Are you speaking from experience of where most (greater than half) of the tools you have actually purchased from there failed under normal non-abusive use and needed replaced? Can you give some examples of tools you bought there that were crap and what was wrong with them?

I think a lot of the HF bashing you see online are people who haven't actually used much of anything from there and are just parroting others and saying HF bad, Snap On good. Some of the complaints are definitely user error too. People who break a jack stand by jacking up a car on a hill or in the grass or on soft blacktop in the heat and cause it to side load and break. People who use ratchets and ratcheting wrenches as breaker bars to try to break torque on a stuck bolt and shear the teeth. People who use a chrome socket on an impact wrench and shatter the socket. People who use a Phillips screwdriver on JIS screws. Using taps and dies without cutting oil. Not keeping air tools oiled. The list goes on. A lot of people who buy there are just buying there because they are the cheapest price or the only store in the area that carries a specific tool, then they use the tool improperly and complain when it breaks.

You need to take it all with a grain of salt. I've spent countless thousands of dollars there over the years, am usually there a few times a week, and can count the number of issues I've had with any of their stuff one hand. Most of their stuff is good to go for for homeowner use and plenty of professionals (the enlightened ones) use their stuff with zero complaints.

Sure a $200 Snap On ratchet might be able to take more ABUSE than a $20 HF ratchet. But the $20 HF ratchets really are phenomenal and should last forever if you don't abuse them. Not being over built, over finished, Made in USA, and over-priced doesn't make them crap.

TL/DR: HF may not be Snap On, but it is not crap

[Spyderman91]

I'm going to be honest...

Initially, I thought the steel upgrade was sick, but after seeing the price at almost one hundred dollars. I'm not seeing the point really especially considering the tenacious is supposed to be a "budget" knife. At that price you can get a lw native 5, lil native, **** even a tad bit more can get you a pm2 or para 3 which are all made in Golden Colorado.

Again, for some people like myself and Evil D, I believe "the point" is as simple as loving the design and wanting to see it in upgraded steels. COO is not really part of the equation. If I could only have one knife in S35VN out of the Tenacious LW, the Native LW, the Manix LW, and Para 3 LW, I would choose the Tenacious LW because I prefer that model/design to the other 3. The fit and finish will be perfectly fine for a working user knife. All four are work knives, not heirloom pieces. The Tenacious LW has as good or better fit and finish than the Para 3 LW and Manix LW in my opinion. It is also screw construction, unlike the Manix LW.

Not seeing the point of a premium Tenacious with an upgraded steel would be like saying you don't see the point to a $203.00 Maxamet Manix LW when the base version is $101.50 and supposed to be a "budget" Golden made folder design. People like different designs for what they are and will pay a premium for upgraded steels. Whether it is a $50 premium for S35VN over 8Cr13MoV, or a $100 premium for Maxamet over BD1N.

To me any variant of a Golden knife makes sense. I will always pay more for a USA product. The manix lw at 100 bucks is a great value as it comes with a "better steel", and construction right off the bat. Same with the native 5 and any other Golden sub 200 dollar knife. I am an American citizen who likes to support their country, and I've been raised to believe American quality is worth it. I understand loving a design and wanting a different variation.

However, I always thought the point of the tenacious was to expose Spyderco to a wider audience of users.
I loved the tenacious for the incredible value it was. Now at the price point of this s35vn model there are way too many alternatives. I personally would rather get a Golden CO knife than a Chinese one. I know people will point to WE, and they do make good knives but the tenacious is no longer the "budget gateway knife" it once was. There are a lot of competitors right now, and the tenacious will have to fight to remian viable. At this point there aren't really any "budget" Spydercos, but we got Byrd for that.

[steelcity16]

I'm going to be honest...

Initially, I thought the steel upgrade was sick, but after seeing the price at almost one hundred dollars. I'm not seeing the point really especially considering the tenacious is supposed to be a "budget" knife. At that price you can get a lw native 5, lil native, **** even a tad bit more can get you a pm2 or para 3 which are all made in Golden Colorado.

Again, for some people like myself and Evil D, I believe "the point" is as simple as loving the design and wanting to see it in upgraded steels. COO is not really part of the equation. If I could only have one knife in S35VN out of the Tenacious LW, the Native LW, the Manix LW, and Para 3 LW, I would choose the Tenacious LW because I prefer that model/design to the other 3. The fit and finish will be perfectly fine for a working user knife. All four are work knives, not heirloom pieces. The Tenacious LW has as good or better fit and finish than the Para 3 LW and Manix LW in my opinion. It is also screw construction, unlike the Manix LW.

Not seeing the point of a premium Tenacious with an upgraded steel would be like saying you don't see the point to a $203.00 Maxamet Manix LW when the base version is $101.50 and supposed to be a "budget" Golden made folder design. People like different designs for what they are and will pay a premium for upgraded steels. Whether it is a $50 premium for S35VN over 8Cr13MoV, or a $100 premium for Maxamet over BD1N.

To me any variant of a Golden knife makes sense. I will always pay more for a USA product. The manix lw at 100 bucks is a great value as it comes with a "better steel", and construction right off the bat. Same with the native 5 and any other Golden sub 200 dollar knife. I am an American citizen who likes to support their country, and I've been raised to believe American quality is worth it. I understand loving a design and wanting a different variation.

However, I always thought the point of the tenacious was to expose Spyderco to a wider audience of users.
I loved the tenacious for the incredible value it was. Now at the price point of this s35vn model there are way too many alternatives. I personally would rather get a Golden CO knife than a Chinese one. I know people will point to WE, and they do make good knives but the tenacious is no longer the "budget gateway knife" it once was. There are a lot of competitors right now, and the tenacious will have to fight to remian viable. At this point there aren't really any "budget" Spydercos, but we got Byrd for that.

Maybe you are missing that they aren't replacing the base model Tenacious and Tenacious LW?? :confused: This S35VN version is just an upgraded version for all of the folks like me who love the model and have been saying "take my money" any time there is a even a suggestion of a Tenacious in an upgraded US Steel. The base 8Cr13Mov Tenacious models aren't going anywhere.

[archangel]

Hi Michael,

If the product isn't marked, how would you know?

sal

If the product is not marked, and the packaging neither, obviously it's impossible. Most products, even cheap junk toys or electronics, do carry a Made In label or stamp. I have higher expectations from products Made In country A or B or C, compared to countries D, E, or F. So I do consider CoO. That's all I meant to say. :)

[JuPaul]

My first thought is that this will open the door to all kinds of new options from the China partner, which is exciting. My assumption is that the existing partner will be making it simply because Spyderco seems to do everything possible to maintain existing relationships

As a side note, I'd be particularly interested in the China Spyderco models if they had 14c28n. This is a steel that doesn't look advantageous in terms of published wear resistance, however the fine microstructure provides an edge stability that causes it to consistently perform between S30V and M390 in testing done on new clean cardboard.

Hopefully we see it one day.

*edit long rambling post on the subject

Didn't Larrin conclude that 14c28n was the "best" of the budget steels? I'd definitely be happier with that than many other budget options based on his conclusions.

[RamZar]

Is the Chinese-made Tenacious subject to tariffs because the $98.00 price seems high? The US-made Para3 with S30V/FRN is also $98.00, the US-made Native5 with S30V(S35VN)/FRN is $105.00 and the Taiwan-made Chaparral with XHP/FRN is $95.90.

Para 3 lw is bd1n not S30v. And to me the price is not too high. Take Civivi for example. I do have some of their knives, and they are good, but the tenacious is as good or better quality wise, and one of the most expensive models (Incite) comes with shred carbon fiber/copper or gold scales and 9cr/10cr Damascus and comes in at $100. I think Damascus is ugly and the shred cf scales don't do it for me, and the tenacious has thicker liners, better steel, and I know the quality is high. Tenacious all day!

Just my opinion!

You're correct and my mistake that Para3 Lightweight FRN is BD1N not S30V.

[zhyla]

Just so we’re clear, I’m not saying this isn’t a good buy at $100. Especially if there were a full SE version. I’m just saying there’s a lot of competition at that price point. I personally am pretty happy with the 8CrMoV13 version and certainly would not pay another $50 for better steel. But I’m not a steel guy.