S35vn on the Tenacious...what does it mean?

[Doc Dan]

My first thought is that this will open the door to all kinds of new options from the China partner, which is exciting. My assumption is that the existing partner will be making it simply because Spyderco seems to do everything possible to maintain existing relationships

As a side note, I'd be particularly interested in the China Spyderco models if they had 14c28n. This is a steel that doesn't look advantageous in terms of published wear resistance, however the fine microstructure provides an edge stability that causes it to consistently perform between S30V and M390 in testing done on new clean cardboard.

Hopefully we see it one day.

*edit long rambling post on the subject

I have to agree 14C28N is under rated. I do not know I would put it that far up the scale, but it is certainly as good as VG-10 or 154CM.

You're definitely right about it not being that far up the scale, at least overall. Specifically through clean, brand new cardboard, surprisingly it is.

Cardboard cut testing is something I've gotten into. There's a lot to it.

I can point you to the YouTube channel Outpost76. I've never spoken with him, but I have done many of my own tests and the results are very close. He's very dedicated and consistent and I support him on Patreon. His results are available in a spreadsheet which he links to in the description of almost all of his videos

I do believe that I've got an additional variable under control, that non of these Youtubers have figured out with the cardboard tests, specifically the angle of approach to the cardboard. I've tested the test angle and it matters significantly and I know why it matters.

So with this post, I've decided that I'll order a 14c28n knife today, that I can test, so we can discuss it in this forum.

I’d be interested in what you discover. I’ve got two hunting knives in the steel. They hold a very sharp edge for a long time but the ‘working edge’ fades quickly it seems. It may be my imagination. But it does seem to keep a very keenly sharp edge longer than many steels. It is not difficult to sharpen,either.

[SubMicron]

My first thought is that this will open the door to all kinds of new options from the China partner, which is exciting. My assumption is that the existing partner will be making it simply because Spyderco seems to do everything possible to maintain existing relationships

As a side note, I'd be particularly interested in the China Spyderco models if they had 14c28n. This is a steel that doesn't look advantageous in terms of published wear resistance, however the fine microstructure provides an edge stability that causes it to consistently perform between S30V and M390 in testing done on new clean cardboard.

Hopefully we see it one day.

*edit long rambling post on the subject

I have to agree 14C28N is under rated. I do not know I would put it that far up the scale, but it is certainly as good as VG-10 or 154CM.

You're definitely right about it not being that far up the scale, at least overall. Specifically through clean, brand new cardboard, surprisingly it is.

Cardboard cut testing is something I've gotten into. There's a lot to it.

I can point you to the YouTube channel Outpost76. I've never spoken with him, but I have done many of my own tests and the results are very close. He's very dedicated and consistent and I support him on Patreon. His results are available in a spreadsheet which he links to in the description of almost all of his videos

I do believe that I've got an additional variable under control, that non of these Youtubers have figured out with the cardboard tests, specifically the angle of approach to the cardboard. I've tested the test angle and it matters significantly and I know why it matters.

So with this post, I've decided that I'll order a 14c28n knife today, that I can test, so we can discuss it in this forum.

I’d be interested in what you discover. I’ve got two hunting knives in the steel. They hold a very sharp edge for a long time but the ‘working edge’ fades quickly it seems. It may be my imagination. But it does seem to keep a very keenly sharp edge longer than many steels. It is not difficult to sharpen,either.

Your experience matches my expectations of 14c28n... holds the fine edge very well, and then falls off a cliff afterwards. I'm eager to test myself.

Part of the reason I'm stuck on 14c28n with Spyderco is because basically everything else is assisted, or is a flipper, or has something else that I dont like.

Assisted knives cause me to accidentally cut myself with some frequency and flippers are a problem because of various injuries to my right index finger including being shot with a .22 pellet gun by an idiot and also breaking it multiple times, including being broken right now. All of this makes a flipper unenjoyable for me... I need the thumb hole.

[soc_monki]

I did an analysis last year on this and I still think Cruwear at ~$100 would have sold like gangbusters.

A high end steel can command a higher price (for a while). S35VN not so much.

What is so bad about the fit and finish compared to a Golden model? I think a lot of this is in people's heads. The Tenacious is a great knife and if it didn't say China most people wouldn't be able to tell.

I have one Tenacious (G-10) and one Ambitious. I’ve owned I think two other Tenacious as well. They’re fine, I don’t have any real complaints. But compared to what Chinese companies are putting out there in the $100 price point, there’s no comparison. I know the Spyderco brand carries a premium but, I dunno, I feel like this should have been $75 street price tops.

Maybe I’m wrong. The lower end Chinese companies tend to put more emphasis on handle materials and fit/finish in this price range than blade steel. A $50-$60 Civivi will blow away the Tenacious in niceness but you only get D2 steel.

I have 4 Civivis and they are all very nice, and they range from 50-80 dollars, 3 are d2 and one is 9cr. Honestly the tenacious easily holds its own against any of them quality and fit and finish wise. I don't think s35 at $98 is out of line at all.

The civivis do have thinner bte geometry though!

[sal]

I guess we'll "hide-n-watch". There is a lot going on with China and the US right now, and most Americans seem unaware. We're in sort of a "Cold War" with China right now. Europe does not require Country of Origin, so Europeans don't even know where their products are coming from.

Eric and I spent more than a year designing the Tenacious. We were competing against the Benchmade "Vex" and kept refining the design until we were sure it was right for that market.

We've been working with the maker for 20 years and it has been a good partnership.

sal

[archangel]

I guess we'll "hide-n-watch". There is a lot going on with China and the US right now, and most Americans seem unaware. We're in sort of a "Cold War" with China right now. Europe does not require Country of Origin, so Europeans don't even know where their products are coming from.

Eric and I spent more than a year designing the Tenacious. We were competing against the Benchmade "Vex" and kept refining the design until we were sure it was right for that market.

We've been working with the maker for 20 years and it has been a good partnership.

sal

Sal, I beg to differ. We do consider Country of Origin.

[sal]

Hi Michael,

If the product isn't marked, how would you know?

sal

[RamZar]

A lot of reputable Chinese knife manufacturers like WE, Reate and Kizer use S35VN & M390 for their higher end knives and D2 & VG-10 for their lower end knives. At $98.00 the Tenacious Lightweight S35VN Blue FRN is not exactly cheap compared to the Tenacious Lightweight 8Cr13MoV Black FRN at $45.50!

[Evil D]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

[JMM]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I agree with you 100%, I just hope and pray they will make a new model of the Resilience one day, it's my absolute favorite Chinese made Spyderco, by a huge margin.

[steelcity16]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I agree with you 100%, I just hope and pray they will make a new model of the Resilience one day, it's my absolute favorite Chinese made Spyderco, by a huge margin.

Yes to a premium Resilience LW. I'd personally love to see Cruwear and wish they would have chosen Cruwear for the Tenacious LW. I think that would have increased sales by a few multiples over S35VN given the scarcity of Cruwear folders and the current hype surrounding it. But I am still super excited for the S35VN version and will be grabbing one as soon as the fine gentleman at St Nick's get them in stock.

There have been Tenacious exclusives in the past, so maybe a Cruwear Tenacious LW exclusive or sprint in a different color FRN is a possibility?? Or maybe even another production model.

[JuPaul]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I also agree. Every time a new Chinese-made spydie is released, there's a chorus of "I love the design and quality but I wish it had a better steel." I've contributed significantly to that chorus concerning both the Bow River and the Astute. I think both knives are incredible designs with excellent fit and finish, and I'd happily pay twice the price (or more depending on the scale materials) for either of them with a premium steel.

[Evil D]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I agree with you 100%, I just hope and pray they will make a new model of the Resilience one day, it's my absolute favorite Chinese made Spyderco, by a huge margin.

I would buy a full SE Resilience so fast even in the default steel.

[Evil D]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I also agree. Every time a new Chinese-made spydie is released, there's a chorus of "I love the design and quality but I wish it had a better steel." I've contributed significantly to that chorus concerning both the Bow River and the Astute. I think both knives are incredible designs with excellent fit and finish, and I'd happily pay twice the price (or more depending on the scale materials) for either of them with a premium steel.

If the Tenacious debuted as a new model from Taichung with a titanium frame lock and M4 steel people would have been all over it. There's a stigma from being made in China that this model may never overcome, but I personally think it's a better design than the Para 2. It's a near perfect EDC design IMO, only a couple things I'd tweak if I could.

[steelcity16]

As far as price goes, the Tenacious models are great knives. If I won a free knife in a raffle or whatever and had a choice between this S35VN Tenacious LW and a hypothetical S35VN Manix LW or Para 3 LW or Native LW, I'd choose the Tenacious LW. Its just a tool, and I like the design better, so why go with the Manix, Para 3 or Native just because they say Golden, CO Earth? I'm not buying it to fondle and obsess over fit and finish. I've had probably well over 100 Spydercos pass through my possession at this point and I've never once thought twice about fit or finish on them, including any of the Chinese models and Byrd models. Buy what looks good and feels good and matches to the tasks you want to use it for. Don't get caught up in COO. So for me, I'm fine with it costing the same as the LW Golden models. There is a cost with shipping the US steel over there, then shipping the knives back over here that likely offsets any descreased labor costs.

Its like the people who bash Harbor Freight and then get stuff from Home Depot and Lowe's that are no better, and oftentimes worse. Harbor Freight has A LOT of awesome stuff at great prices. Sure there may be some junk here or there, especially on newer items, but they CQI just like Spyderco and improve the quality over time. But so many people will say its all junk. To me though, if prices are equal, i'd still take Pittsburgh over Husky or Kobalt on a lot of tools.

[JMM]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I agree with you 100%, I just hope and pray they will make a new model of the Resilience one day, it's my absolute favorite Chinese made Spyderco, by a huge margin.

I would buy a full SE Resilience so fast even in the default steel.

I know, right?

[Mushroom]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I also agree. Every time a new Chinese-made spydie is released, there's a chorus of "I love the design and quality but I wish it had a better steel." I've contributed significantly to that chorus concerning both the Bow River and the Astute. I think both knives are incredible designs with excellent fit and finish, and I'd happily pay twice the price (or more depending on the scale materials) for either of them with a premium steel.

If the Tenacious debuted as a new model from Taichung with a titanium frame lock and M4 steel people would have been all over it. There's a stigma from being made in China that this model may never overcome, but I personally think it's a better design than the Para 2. It's a near perfect EDC design IMO, only a couple things I'd tweak if I could.

I think you're right about the Tenacious having a "budget" design stigma because it's made in China. As a result, it makes me wonder how a Paramilitary 2 made in China would be received by the general market. Same PM2 design, except made to the same spec as the current Tenacious line, effectively cutting the price in half. I wonder if it would maintain its current reputation or would it suddenly carry the same "made in china" stigma that the Tenacious has?

[kirill.sergueev]

would be nice to have a forum knife Tenatious with K390

[ykspydiefan]

I have a warm spot for the Tenacious as it was my first Spyderco knife. I have hunting knife in s35vn, so I won't be buying this Tenacious. But really, I do not have enough variety in my collection yet to buy multiples which is the better reason why I wont buy.

I would buy a Tenacious Tee shirt in a second. The Bug Logo Tee shirt with Tenacious printed on the back would work just fine. Please.

[kennethsime]

I like the tenacious, although I've never purchased one. Maybe this'll be the first?

Would love to see a Bow River with s35vn as well.

[anycal]

Just so we're all on the same page, if this turns out to be a good seller and everyone likes it I'm going to say I told ya so and rub it in as hard as I can politely do so. If you ask me this is long over due.

I also agree. Every time a new Chinese-made spydie is released, there's a chorus of "I love the design and quality but I wish it had a better steel." I've contributed significantly to that chorus concerning both the Bow River and the Astute. I think both knives are incredible designs with excellent fit and finish, and I'd happily pay twice the price (or more depending on the scale materials) for either of them with a premium steel.

If the Tenacious debuted as a new model from Taichung with a titanium frame lock and M4 steel people would have been all over it. There's a stigma from being made in China that this model may never overcome, but I personally think it's a better design than the Para 2. It's a near perfect EDC design IMO, only a couple things I'd tweak if I could.

I think you're right about the Tenacious having a "budget" design stigma because it's made in China. As a result, it makes me wonder how a Paramilitary 2 made in China would be received by the general market. Same PM2 design, except made to the same spec as the current Tenacious line, effectively cutting the price in half. I wonder if it would maintain its current reputation or would it suddenly carry the same "made in china" stigma that the Tenacious has?

I don't disagree. There is stigma. And even though some of it comes from history of inferior product, I think Spyderco demonstrated that it is not related to quality of their budget line.

We all draw lines in lot of aspects of our lives, for different reasons. Even if you get me my ideal PM2.

Opps, my iPhone is dying, need to charge it up...