How often does Spyderco upgrade knife versions?

[JustinUtherdude]

Howdy guys. I was looking for new spydies to get my hands on recently and realized that I still don't have many of the "reference" knives. I'm a big fan of the lockback knives and still don't own an endura or delica. I was looking at them though and realized that they don't have finger choils. My favorite knife is currently the dragonfly and so it got me to wondering. How often does Spyderco upgrade versions of their knives? I noticed that the endura and delica are both in their 4th iteration. Are there any plans/possibilities for a version 5? Would the version 5 include finger choils?

Thank you for your time. -Justin Utherdude

[sal]

Hi Justin,

Astute question. We make changes as we find improvement. We call it Constant Quality Improvement (CQI) and we make them any time of the year that we have an opportunity (new run, etc.).

For models like the Endura, Delica, etc., the general market that buys this model family don't want finger choils. (?) We added them to the Dragonfly for better purchase, and we put them on the Stretch 1 & 2, which has not been well received.
We're still studying the reasons.

sal

[James Y]

I like the finger choils on some knives (for example: Manix 2, Military, Police 4 LWT, PM2, PM3, etc.), but would NOT on other knives (Delica, Endura, Endela, etc.). On the latter knives, there is no need for finger choils; it’ll just shrink the amount of usable edge.

Jim

[JustinUtherdude]

It might be knowledge that they exist. I just looked at the stretch 2 and would love to get one of those in a "fancy" version like the teal s30v, maxamet, s110v, etc. I have to ask though, (looking at BladeHQ) why does it look like the Ivory sprint run is the only one with the standard blade shape?

[JustinUtherdude]

And with the endura and delica it almost looks like you wouldn't have to sacrifice any blade length for a choil. The steel just behind the blade already protrudes a bit, just extend it downwards a bit to get that choil. Then get rid of that bump on the front of the scale and move it backwards to create the back half of the choil. I guess that I'll have to pick up one of all 3 of these knives to compare them. The I think that the teal endura and delica are in my future. Is there any chance of a stretch 2 being released with a normal blade shape and a "premium steel"?

[JustinUtherdude]

It looks like I may have to get into designing knives myself. How much did you struggle with designing your first folding blade? Does Spyderco ever do any collaborations with other companies? (not sprint runs, more like design collaborations) Does Spyderco use a common distributor for their steel blanks? If I wanted to pick up some odd steels for my own messing around would there be a good place to do that?

[sal]

Hi Justin,

Designing what you like does not necessarily sell well to the market?

sal

[Bemo]

we put them on the Stretch 1 & 2, which has not been well received.
We're still studying the reasons.

sal

This may be my favorite pattern and part of the reason IS the choil. The Endela and Stretch are virtually identical in all measurements but the ergonomics IMHO is better on the Stretch 2. I choose the Native 5 over the Delica in part because of the choil.

Everyone's hands and preferences are different and there are no right or wrong answers.

But I would love the Stretch 2 to have some of the wonderful options that seem to be showered upon the Endela/Endura line. A Salt version (PE, SE), K390..... a wharncliffe version....

[foofie]

You can search for delica5 - not an official thread, but conjecture of what changes would be incorporated. The consensus was that adding a choil would not be consistent with a delica. As mentioned, there are other options if you prefer the choil - like the stretch or a chaparral. Or consider after-market scales, like Boomer52, that can add a choil without affecting cutting edge - his lil' para mod.

As far as your question about premium steel - the Endura family is in the midst of getting k390. Endura, ladybug, dfly and delica I believe are all out. Pretty sure stretch is included and soon to come.

[Wartstein]

.... Would the version 5 include finger choils?

Hi Justin,

I totally respect you wish for a choil on Endura and Delica, but as has been mentioned already:
This would not be an upgrade per se for many, but just an alternative and in many cases (me included) actually a "downgrade".

My of course very subjective points on this:

- A choil would place the hand further away from the cutting edge when one holds the knife on the regular (FRN part of the) handle - while..

- One can still perfectly choke up on the Ricasso of Endura and Delica, just like on a choil. Trust me, I do this all the time and for many years now in many tasks and conditions. No problem at all, no danger and as a matter of fact for me personally it gives me even more control than choking up on the actual choils of many (not all) models.

- There are so very many Spyderco models already which DO feature a finger choil (and that´s great, I do like my finger choil knives like especially Stretch 1 and Chaparral FRN very much!), so it would be sad to turn the alternative approach of Endura, Endela and Delica into yet another "choiled folders" - lets keep up the great variety Spyderco offers! (Again, I do enjoy and carry both concepts, choil and no choil)

[Wartstein]

This may be my favorite pattern and part of the reason IS the choil. The Endela and Stretch are virtually identical in all measurements but the ergonomics IMHO is better on the Stretch 2. I choose the Native 5 over the Delica in part because of the choil.

Everyone's hands and preferences are different and there are no right or wrong answers.

Hi Bemo,

I have and had both several Stretches ("1", "2" and straight spine) and the Endela.
For me both models have rather different (and both for me great!!) ergos, but I honestly could not decide which ones (ergos) I like more...
Still, I think one can´t say the Stretch ergos are better (just) due to the choil?! - The Stretch has just generally a different approach towards ergos than the Endela, choil or not - what do you say?

Now my 2c on Native vs Delica: Actually the choil is one of the reasons that made me sell my Native 5 LW, but I still have and love my Delica.
Why?
The Native has that particular handle length, that WOULD offer a full comfortable grip on the handle, but due to the handle part of the choil the handle behind the choil gets to short, so I HAVE to choke up with my L to XL hands.
Plus, the blade part of the choil sacrifices cutting edge... Not so on the Delica: Roomy, comfortable actual handle, plus a Ricasso I can choke up anyway as well as on a choil..
Again, I DO like choils both in smaller folders than the Native (DFly, Chaparral) and in larger ones (Stretch, PM2...) - just not in the particular Native size range.

Off topic, but what I also prefer in the Delica: The thinner, better performing blade just as a cutting tool.

[austrian_spyder_fan]

For models like the Endura, Delica, etc., the general market that buys this model family don't want finger choils. (?) We added them to the Dragonfly for better purchase, and we put them on the Stretch 1 & 2, which has not been well received.
We're still studying the reasons.

sal

I'm also a choil fan overall.
I love the ergonomy of DFY, Native, Lil' Native, UKPK and Para3 ...
I also bought a Delica 2 and a Stretch 1.
The Delica is a legend and has a huge fan base, but it's not my favorite.
The Stretch 1 has a great ergonomy, but for my use it is to big and looks aggressive (my opinion) because of the drop point blade.
My favorites are leaf shaped blades!
I will try a Stretch 2 with spine edge if i still get one.

2 or 3 weeks ago i bought a Centofante 3, because i was curious.
It has no choil but i really like it as a gentlemens knife.

So Justin why don't you try a Stretch?

And 100% agreement to you Sal, personal design imaginations are not a gurantee to sell something succesfully!

[Bemo]

Still, I think one can´t say the Stretch ergos are better (just) due to the choil?! - The Stretch has just generally a different approach towards ergos than the Endela, choil or not - what do you say?

No I can't say necessarily that a choil is the sole reason ergo's fit someone. Way too many variables and a person's subjective experience is still their experience and I wouldn't dream of trying to deny it. Really my post was meant to support and agree with Sal's puzzlement that the Stretch isn't a more popular design. And it just so happens all my favorite Spyderco designs seem to incorporate a choil, from the dragonfly to the Chapparal to the Sage 5 to the Caly line and on.

No implied judgement, just trying to understand stuff like everyone else.

[Sharp Guy]

There are plenty of models available with choils and plenty without. I'm happy with both! There are so many great models in the line up. There's something for everyone

[The Mastiff]

k390. Endura, ladybug, dfly and delica I believe are all out.

I keep seeing people talk about the Endura having been released but I have seen no examples anywhere including ebay and amazon. I have a pre order in but have had no luck with them the last several releases.

I know the Endura is coming soon though and I'll eventually get one even if I have to pay extra.

[carrot]

If you ever wondered what a Delica4 or Endura4 would be like with a choil, you should try the Meadowlark 2 or the Cara Cara 2.

I prefer best the stainless handled ones, but if you want grippy, go for the G-10. They are a little rough around the edges (easily fixed with a file and some sandpaper) but show what the D4/E4 could have been.

It's an interesting give and take, because while F&F is substantially the lesser, you do get nice, premium scales of G-10 (or Ti, when they were available). They won't break the bank. With a little elbow grease and time for the action to smooth out, they become quite good of an EDC. After dismantling, cleaning, and reassembling my Cara Cara 2 Ti, it ranks quite high amongst all my Spydercos.

Interestingly, I strongly prefer the Cara Cara over the Endura (it is thinner, slightly shorter, and a bit pointier, plus a choil), but I have never developed any feelings toward the Meadowlark. I think, minus the less aesthetic Byrd comet-hole, that the Robin is far superior in handling to the Dragonfly, although much less fun without the derringer-style handle.

[Wartstein]

Still, I think one can´t say the Stretch ergos are better (just) due to the choil?! - The Stretch has just generally a different approach towards ergos than the Endela, choil or not - what do you say?

No I can't say necessarily that a choil is the sole reason ergo's fit someone. Way too many variables and a person's subjective experience is still their experience and I wouldn't dream of trying to deny it. Really my post was meant to support and agree with Sal's puzzlement that the Stretch isn't a more popular design. And it just so happens all my favorite Spyderco designs seem to incorporate a choil, from the dragonfly to the Chapparal to the Sage 5 to the Caly line and on.

No implied judgement, just trying to understand stuff like everyone else.

Hi Bemo,

Sounds a bit like I came across offensive and if so, I apologize. Did not mean to criticize your previous post, just to discuss,
And btw, I totally share the "puzzlement that the Stretch isn´t a more popular design". Wrote about exactly that myself multiple times in the past and to me the Stretch (for me the "1" even more so than the "2") is among the top 3 folders of all times and all brands! :)

And again, I do like choils, especially in really small knives (Chap, DFly) but also in larger ones (Stretch, PM2).
Just not in the particular Native / Delica site range, but also like the perfectly refined Endura/Endela "choil-less" approach

[Bemo]

Carrot,

I have the Byrd Hawkbill and the Harrier in FRN and my first reaction was exactly that: wow why aren't these handles available on Seki models. I will give the Cara Cara a look thanks for the suggestion.

Warnstein, no not offended in the slightest. While I can type fast my thoughts still are faster and I can be very wordy by nature. I try extremely hard not to do that on posts and sometimes that effort at brevity makes for awkward phrasing and incomplete thoughts in posts.

[Evil D]

We're still studying the reasons.

sal

I genuinely don't get it. I like to think I look at knife use from the most practical perspective that I can and issues (details) like these really make me scratch my head. I've drawn up probably a dozen knife ideas over the years but sometimes I feel like most people want something different than I want and it seems like most people buy more for looks than for performance.

[steelcity16]

It might be knowledge that they exist. I just looked at the stretch 2 and would love to get one of those in a "fancy" version like the teal s30v, maxamet, s110v, etc. I have to ask though, (looking at BladeHQ) why does it look like the Ivory sprint run is the only one with the standard blade shape?

And with the endura and delica it almost looks like you wouldn't have to sacrifice any blade length for a choil. The steel just behind the blade already protrudes a bit, just extend it downwards a bit to get that choil. Then get rid of that bump on the front of the scale and move it backwards to create the back half of the choil. I guess that I'll have to pick up one of all 3 of these knives to compare them. The I think that the teal endura and delica are in my future. Is there any chance of a stretch 2 being released with a normal blade shape and a "premium steel"?

The "standard" blade shape in the Stretch was the drop point blade you see on all models aside from the Ivory Sprint. The "normal" blade shape on the Ivory Sprint is the "Straight Spine Stretch" and effectively gives you a PM2 type blade in a LW FRN backlock design. This sprint was the first and currently only release of the Straight Spine Stretch and was used to gauge demand. It sold out, but it took a few months.

I do think you will eventually see the Straight Spine Stretch in a premium steel. I am predicting it will be added to the new K390 family in Reveal 7. I also think this is a good candidate for a Teal S30V exclusive, a coated Cruwear exclusive from DLT, or a coated 4V exclusive from St. Nick's.

It will also be interesting to see which Stretch blade shape is included in the next round of Seki Endura family sprints. It sounds like SRS-13 (I'm hoping unclad, but it could be San Mai) will be the next steel in this sprint series. Which Stretch they include (one or the other, both, or neither) is anyone's guess. I'd guess they only include the Straight Spine Stretch. The standard Drop Point Stretch seems to always be the last model to sell out in these sprint series, aside from maybe the Meerkat.