Deep carry clips

[Menipo]

I always thought that the main purpose of a deep carry clip is to make the knife "invisible" when it is placed in the pocket.

I was happy when I saw Spyderco starting to use deep carry clips, specially because the wire configuration used by Spyderco makes the clip itself even more discrete. However, almost all Spyderco wire deep carry clips (if not all) leave a portion of the handle (even if very small) exposed and I never understood why. Is there any reason for that? Why Spyderco's clips do not reach (or even surpass) the end of the handle to make the knife unnoticeable when placed in the pocket? I attach a couple of examples of deep carry clips of other manufacturers which reach the end of the handle (ZT) or even surpass it (SOG) to make myself better understood:

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/SOG111 ... rn-handles

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/ZT0707 ... um-handles

The fact that the knife can be seen or not makes a difference in those jurisdictions where permission/prohibition to carry a knife is based on concealment (or not).

Maybe this is a question for Sal but I decided to make it here openly just in case any of you, guys, know the answer.

[SG89]

Sometimes it's an issue with trying to fit the lanyard tube and scale screws and clip screws all together in the same tiny spot that makes the most sense structurally. Some people grasp the knife from their pocket by only pinching the end of the knife so they need it to protrude from the pocket somewhat.
I pull a clipped knife from my pocket by sticking my thumb in my pocket behind the knife then pinch and pull upward with the rest of my hand. I think all wire clips should be placed as far back as possible but I'm in the minority.

[Wartstein]

Hi Menipo,

I was not aware of that there actually are jurisdictions, where one is allowed to carry a folder as long as it is totally conceiled, but not allowed to carry it when it can be seen.
If that is the case in some places (and of course I believe you if you say so!) a real deep carry clip (so that all of the knife is buried in the pocket) would make total sense there.

Other than that: Tbh, I am one of those who really DISlikes deep carry clips (just personal preference of course).
So I am really glad that IF a Spyderco actually has a more or less deep carry clip, there is still a portion of the handle that sticks out of the pocket (like it is the case with the Chaparral)

My reasoning:

- A deep carry clip makes a knife less well accessible. That is true even if you don´t grip the knife on the part that sticks out of the pocket, but reach inside the pocket with the thumb (like I always do). Furthermore, when more of the knife is in the pocket (like it is with a deep carry clip), as soon as one has drawn the knife out of the pocket, the hand sits further back on the handle, so especially with larger folders there has to be more repositioning of the hand before the thumb is actually in the opening hole

- A deep carry clip makes a knife feel longer and larger in the pocket as it would be with a non deep carry clip. I really hated that on the Kapara: This knife is shorter than an Endura, but due to its deep carry clip it actually felt longer in the pocket: This can get a bit awkward when riding a bicycle or making high steps when mountain hiking and also makes it more likely in such situations to accidently push the knife out of the pocket by leg movement

- REALLY subjective: I think deep carry clips look weird ...

[Menipo]

Sometimes it's an issue with trying to fit the lanyard tube and scale screws and clip screws all together in the same tiny spot that makes the most sense structurally. Some people grasp the knife from their pocket by only pinching the end of the knife so they need it to protrude from the pocket somewhat.
I pull a clipped knife from my pocket by sticking my thumb in my pocket behind the knife then pinch and pull upward with the rest of my hand. I think all wire clips should be placed as far back as possible but I'm in the minority.

I fully agree with you. If concealment is not an issue (a legal or a social one), I would never use deep carry clips.

[Menipo]

Hi Menipo,

I was not aware of that there actually are jurisdictions, where one is allowed to carry a folder as long as it is totally conceiled, but not allowed to carry it when it can be seen.
If that is the case in some places (and of course I believe you if you say so!) a real deep carry clip (so that all of the knife is buried in the pocket) would make total sense there.

Other than that: Tbh, I am one of those who really DISlikes deep carry clips (just personal preference of course).
So I am really glad that IF a Spyderco actually has a more or less deep carry clip, there is still a portion of the handle that sticks out of the pocket (like it is the case with the Chaparral)

My reasoning:

- A deep carry clip makes a knife less well accessible. That is true even if you don´t grip the knife on the part that sticks out of the pocket, but reach inside the pocket with the thumb (like I always do). Furthermore, when more of the knife is in the pocket (like it is with a deep carry clip), as soon as one has drawn the knife out of the pocket, the hand sits further back on the handle, so especially with larger folders there has to be more repositioning of the hand before the thumb is actually in the opening hole

- A deep carry clip makes a knife feel longer and larger in the pocket as it would be with a non deep carry clip. I really hated that on the Kapara: This knife is shorter than an Endura, but due to its deep carry clip it actually felt longer in the pocket: This can get a bit awkward when riding a bicycle or making high steps when mountain hiking and also makes it more likely in such situations to accidently push the knife out of the pocket by leg movement

- REALLY subjective: I think deep carry clips look weird ...

Hi Wartstein,

Yes, concealment might be an issue because the knife laws of the different (US) states have different approaches to this matter. If you are curious about that, you could visit the website of the AKTI (American Knife & Tool Institute). There you can see how each state regulates it. For instance (in accordance with them) in Delaware only “ordinary” pocket-knives may be carried concealed. Some European jurisdictions have their own problems ...

But concealment is not only a legal matter. It is also a social matter (some people see a knife as a threat and its carrier as a potential criminal :o ).

So, if because of legal or social constraints, I have a Spyderco which I would like not be noticed, I would like a really deep carry clip. The matter can be easily solved by buying aftermarket true deep carry clips but I was wondering why other reputable brands deliver their products with them ... and my preferred one not

As a said in my previous posts, however, if concealment is not an issue, I would also prefer the "traditional" clips which leave a part of the handle exposed (and allow to grab the knife easily).

[Wartstein]

...

Hi Wartstein,

Yes, concealment might be an issue because the knife laws of the different (US) states have different approaches to this matter. If you are curious about that, you could visit the website of the AKTI (American Knife & Tool Institute). There you can see how each state regulates it. For instance (in accordance with them) in Delaware only “ordinary” pocket-knives may be carried concealed. Some European jurisdictions have their own problems ...

But concealment is not only a legal matter. It is also a social matter (some people see a knife as a threat and its carrier as a potential criminal :o ).

So, if because of legal or social constraints, I have a Spyderco which I would like not be noticed, I would like a really deep carry clip. The matter can be easily solved by buying aftermarket true deep carry clips but I was wondering why other reputable brands deliver their products with them ... and my preferred one not

As a said in my previous posts, however, if concealment is not an issue, I would also prefer the "traditional" clips which leave a part of the handle exposed (and allow to grab the knife easily).

Thanks for your detailled reply! :)

You know, when it comes to knife laws my homecountry really is kind of the promised land in Europe: Here in Austria we are allowed to basically carry really any knife we like, so I was never really confronted with the "having to conceil"-issue. Though I rather frequently cross the border to Germany (where they have stupidly strict laws) and there still just leave my Endura or whatever (not legal in Germany) in my pocket just like in Austria. Since I am more the "wears his shirt untucked" - kind of guy , the knife can´t still be seen anyway...

So you´d like Spyderco to offer their folders with deep carry clip as the default version?
Or just to offer deep carry clips as spare parts?

As for the second option: I remember Sal saying something along the lines that Spyderco does not want to hurt the more or less small companies who produce aftermarket deep carry clips.

[Sonorum]

On smaller knives like a delica or a meadowlark a deep carry clip improves the ergos of the knife by changing where the handle is thickest. I often feel a little bit like I'm falling of the end of those knives with my hand but when I have a deep carry clip they are thicker in the rear which gives some force forwards towards the blade. I had a real epiphany when I randomly tried it the first time...

[Wartstein]

On smaller knives like a delica or a meadowlark a deep carry clip improves the ergos of the knife by changing where the handle is thickest. I often feel a little bit like I'm falling of the end of those knives with my hand but when I have a deep carry clip they are thicker in the rear which gives some force forwards towards the blade. I had a real epiphany when I randomly tried it the first time...

That's actually a very interesting point!
Since I dislike deep carry clips I obviously never tried one on a Delica, but I can absolutely see how it could even improve its ergos,m(which I like anyway, but still), as you point out.

[zuludelta]

"Deep carry" wire clips that fully recess a folding knife in one's pocket can actually be a potential legal problem in some jurisdictions, particularly in places where the legality of knife carry is dependent on perceived intent.

Here in Canada, for example, there are technically no limits on blade length for public carry, so long as the person carrying the knife has a reasonable justification for carrying one (i.e., for utility, as a work tool, etc.)—note that self-defence is NOT one of those justifications.

However, fully concealing a knife while carrying it in public can be interpreted as a sign that one potentially intends to use the knife in an unlawful manner. One can of course argue that if the deep-carry wire clip is still visible (even if the knife itself isn't) then it is not fully concealed. But I wouldn't want to be the one making that argument with a police officer.

Edited to add: While I think Canada's knife-carry laws are generally reasonable (outside of the ban on automatic knives & especially "gravity knives", which I will argue is non-sensical & partially based on discriminatory ethnic stereotypes), it can also lead to an absurd situation where a Ladybug carried on one's keychain might get you in trouble with the law while, say, carrying a Jumpmaster 2 strapped to one's thigh while out kayaking won't :D

[Menipo]

Thanks for your detailled reply! :)

You know, when it comes to knife laws my homecountry really is kind of the promised land in Europe: Here in Austria we are allowed to basically carry really any knife we like, so I was never really confronted with the "having to conceil"-issue. Though I rather frequently cross the border to Germany (where they have stupidly strict laws) and there still just leave my Endura or whatever (not legal in Germany) in my pocket just like in Austria. Since I am more the "wears his shirt untucked" - kind of guy , the knife can´t still be seen anyway...

So you´d like Spyderco to offer their folders with deep carry clip as the default version?
Or just to offer deep carry clips as spare parts?

As for the second option: I remember Sal saying something along the lines that Spyderco does not want to hurt the more or less small companies who produce aftermarket deep carry clips.

You are welcome!

No. Neither default versions nor spare parts. I would take a different approach: I would put (true) deep carry clips ("DCC") on some models of the catalogue only (as, btw, other manufacturers do).

To me, it makes little sense to mount DCC on knifes which are clearly designed for hard use outdoors. But I would do that on gentleman's and "urban" knives. For instance, I would never put a DCC on a Police (if the customer afterwards wants to install an aftermarket DCC it's up to him/her) but I would do that on the Kapara (as, if I am correct, it was originally designed by Alistair Phillips "for food preparation in an office environment"). Another perfect candidates would be the Ikuchi and the Centofante: both are gentleman's knives which are most likely to be carried by a guy in a suit than by you climbing the Alps :cool: . I would never put a DCC on an Endura but would do it on a Delica (a limited number of Delicas could be offered with DCC as a limited number of other models are offered with special steels or handles).

That approach would also allow Sal not to hurt Casey Lynch and other small manufacturers which produce aftermarket DCC: they could continue producing DCC for the models what Spyderco had decided to manufacture with standard clips but some customers prefer with DCC. For instance, though I would not expect Spyderco to sell Enduras with DCC I carry my Zome with a LNW DCC -I am a loyal client of Casey).

At the end of the day, if Spyderco has decided to use deep carry clips on some of the models of the catalogue, IMHO they should be really deep. A DCC which leaves a 1/16 of an inch exposed is deep enough to create the disadvantages mentioned by Spydergirl88 and you ... but is not deep enough for me to carry it concealed.

[Sonorum]

On smaller knives like a delica or a meadowlark a deep carry clip improves the ergos of the knife by changing where the handle is thickest. I often feel a little bit like I'm falling of the end of those knives with my hand but when I have a deep carry clip they are thicker in the rear which gives some force forwards towards the blade. I had a real epiphany when I randomly tried it the first time...

That's actually a very interesting point!
Since I dislike deep carry clips I obviously never tried one on a Delica, but I can absolutely see how it could even improve its ergos,m(which I like anyway, but still), as you point out.

A long mxg gear clip makes a big difference!

[Menipo]

"Deep carry" wire clips that fully recess a folding knife in one's pocket can actually be a potential legal problem in some jurisdictions, particularly in places where the legality of knife carry is dependent on perceived intent.

Here in Canada, for example, there are technically no limits on blade length for public carry, so long as the person carrying the knife has a reasonable justification for carrying one (i.e., for utility, as a work tool, etc.)—note that self-defence is NOT one of those justifications.

However, fully concealing a knife while carrying it in public can be interpreted as a sign that one potentially intends to use the knife in an unlawful manner. One can of course argue that if the deep-carry wire clip is still visible (even if the knife itself isn't) then it is not fully concealed. But I wouldn't want to be the one making that argument with a police officer.

The argument is interesting, zuludelta, but it has a flaw IMHO: taking to the edge that statement ("concealing a knife while carrying it in public can be interpreted as a sign that one potentially intends to use the knife in an unlawful manner"), all pocket knives that do not have a clip (the vast majority of them) would be illegal to carry as they can only be carried fully concealed: at the bottom of a pocket. Don't you agree?

[aicolainen]

Got to agree with the OP on this one. If it’s a deep carry clip it should be real deep carry. Almost doesn’t really cut it.

Where I live both the laws concerning knives and their social acceptance can be a little unpredictable, so in an urban setting it’s always better to keep a low profile and not advertise that you’re carrying.

[RustyIron]

The fact that the knife can be seen or not makes a difference in those jurisdictions where permission/prohibition to carry a knife is based on concealment (or not).

Concealed means concealed. A clip running down out of your pocket is not "concealed." If your intent is to be hide the knife, wear a longer cover garment or move the knife someplace else.

[zuludelta]

The argument is interesting, zuludelta, but it has a flaw IMHO: taking to the edge that statement ("concealing a knife while carrying it in public can be interpreted as a sign that one potentially intends to use the knife in an unlawful manner"), all pocket knives that do not have a clip (the vast majority of them) would be illegal to carry as they can only be carried fully concealed: at the bottom of a pocket. Don't you agree?

Concealment of the knife is not illegal in and of itself, but it can be taken as evidence that the person carrying the knife intends to do something unlawful with it. One can carry a concealed knife, but the burden is on the person carrying the concealed knife to prove that there is a justifiable reason for its carry in that manner if questioned about it.

That is the problem with Canadian knife laws: on the whole, they are based on common sense since legality is based on the user's reason for carrying a knife, but determination of intent can be so vague that what & how one is able to carry knives in public is very arbitrary & is basically up to the whims & interpretation of the investigating authority.

[Menipo]

Concealed means concealed.

That assertion is, simply and literally, irrefutable.

A clip running down out of your pocket is not "concealed." If your intent is to be hide the knife, wear a longer cover garment or move the knife someplace else.

A clip running down out of my pocket can perfectly conceal a knife. Because it could be, for instance, the clip of a pen. I can hide the knife just by getting a very slight modification of the present deep carry clip (enlargement toward edge of the handle). No need for cover garment (if one wears it mid August it becomes even most suspicious).

[araneae]

The fact that the knife can be seen or not makes a difference in those jurisdictions where permission/prohibition to carry a knife is based on concealment (or not).

Concealed means concealed. A clip running down out of your pocket is not "concealed." If your intent is to be hide the knife, wear a longer cover garment or move the knife someplace else.

Gotta agree. See cases documented in NYC where cops saw just a clip showing and used it as an excuse to stop folks who were just minding their business. If you are carrying where you shouldn't be, drop it in your pocket or use an alternate carry method. I spot a lot of people carrying knives based on a clip showing, its typically more attention getting than 1/4 inch of knife handle. A deep wire clip is probably the least noticeable as being a knife.

Clip types are like tip up/ tip down carry, people have opinions on each side and there are people who just don't care one way or the other. You can't make everyone happy all the time. That said, I'd love to see Spyderco make a steel, hourglass deep carry option for models like the E4/D4, N5. If they sold for $10 each I bet they'd make a nice chunk of change on them.

I really can't see that cutting into Lynch's market too much, I'd still buy his clips for my P2/3s because I love the look and function they offer. I am sure there are lots of people who prefer the look and perceived fanciness of Ti that will stick with him over a steel Spydie clip. I won't pay the silly amount it would cost to swap all my stuff over to Lynch clips though.

[araneae]

Concealment of the knife is not illegal in and of itself, but it can be taken as evidence that the person carrying the knife intends to do something unlawful with it. One can carry a concealed knife, but the burden is on the person carrying the concealed knife to prove that there is a justifiable reason for its carry in that manner if questioned about it.

Depends on local laws. There is not one law to rule them all.

[zuludelta]

Concealment of the knife is not illegal in and of itself, but it can be taken as evidence that the person carrying the knife intends to do something unlawful with it. One can carry a concealed knife, but the burden is on the person carrying the concealed knife to prove that there is a justifiable reason for its carry in that manner if questioned about it.

Depends on local laws. There is not one law to rule them all.

I should have made it clear in that post that I was talking about federal knife laws in Canada. And yes, one also has to take into account municipal bylaws, which will vary from place to place. As always, it pays to learn the rules where one decides to carry. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse and so on and so forth :D

[Menipo]

Concealment of the knife is not illegal in and of itself, but it can be taken as evidence that the person carrying the knife intends to do something unlawful with it. One can carry a concealed knife, but the burden is on the person carrying the concealed knife to prove that there is a justifiable reason for its carry in that manner if questioned about it.

That is the problem with Canadian knife laws: on the whole, they are based on common sense since legality is based on the user's reason for carrying a knife, but determination of intent can be so vague that what & how one is able to carry knives in public is very arbitrary & is basically up to the whims & interpretation of the investigating authority.

I fully understand you (because the situation here is similar) but I consider, from your words, that in Canada the question is not concealed/visible but reason to carry the knife/absence of a reason because the vast majority of pocket knives (those without a clip) can only be carried concealed (at the bottom of the pocket) and to me it makes little sense that everyone carrying a traditional pocket knife (with no clip) at the bottom of his pocket (and, therefore, concealed) has to evidence a reason for its carry in that manner if questioned.

And that is precisely the situation here. All knives (except a few exceptions like autos or daggers) can be bought and possesed no matter their size. But if the size of the blade is 11 cm (4.33"), or longer, they must stay at home because one can only possess them "for collecting purposes". If the size is less than 4.33", it is legal carrying them out of home but any police officer has the authority for taking the knife and filing a report that might result in the impossition of a fine of up to USD 600 if he considers that the carrying of the knife is not justified. That statement can be discussed in court (and one can get his knife back if the judge is convinced that one was not creating any risk or intending to carry out any ilegal conduct) but judges use to accept the opinion of the police officers in general terms. In some cases there is not even room for discussion: one carrying a knife at a crowded place, such a concert, is lost.

In that context, having a true deep carry clip becomes essential. Out of sight, out of mind. The concealment of the knife is not an illegal conduct per se because, as I said, all traditional pocket knives are carried concealed by definition at the bottom of the pocket as they do not have clips.