VG-10 or S30V first knife steel?

[xceptnl]

Many of us knife nuts who have been around for a while hear the slogan that S30V was the first steel developed for knives, however Sal brought a known fact to light in recent threads that VG-10 was developed by Takefu specifically for grafting and pruning. So the question is, was VG-10 the first or donwe know of others that even predated this Japanese steel as the epicenter of steels made specifically for knives? I'm sure Larin has this answer in his book, but I haven't been able to dig into it as much as I have wanted.

[Abyss_Fish]

There's likely several super old precursor steels. metallurgy is a veeeeerrrrry old industry. There were most definitely blade-smiths in medieval and ancient Europe doing their best to purify the steel on the swords they were making.

although if you're talking folders then yeah s30v is probably the one.

[wrdwrght]

Many of us knife nuts who have been around for a while hear the slogan that S30V was the first steel developed for knives, however Sal brought a known fact to light in recent threads that VG-10 was developed by Takefu specifically for grafting and pruning. So the question is, was VG-10 the first or donwe know of others that even predated this Japanese steel as the epicenter of steels made specifically for knives? I'm sure Larin has this answer in his book, but I haven't been able to dig into it as much as I have wanted.

I took Sal to mean that VG10 was NOT the first steel developed for knives in general, but is surely great for them, even if S30V was developed explicitly for knives in general and is surely great for them.

[Larrin]

Takefu does claim that VG10 was developed for knives: http://www.e-tokko.com/v_gold_10.php?lang=en

[Bill1170]

Tamahagane was developed in ancient Japan for knives/swords/instruments of woodworking. Similarly the wootz steel.

[Takuan]

Tamahagane was developed in ancient Japan for knives/swords/instruments of woodworking. Similarly the wootz steel.

You beat me to it! :) Wootz steel probably originated in Sri Lanka around the 6th century BCE.

[JD Spydo]

It's always been amazing to me that certain types of steel that were made for certain applications. Take ATS-34 for instance>> I heard that it was first made for turbine blades in jet engines> and it was an American knife maker that discovered it to be a great blade steel with the right heat treatment.

Also I got to chat with one of the reps from Crucible at one of the BLADE shows and I was commenting to him how much of a monster that 440V ( S60V) was to sharpen,. He told me he was not surprised because that particular steel was initially made for the "tool & die" industry.

I would think that's the case most of the time that most steels are first made for industrial applications because they are a much bigger market to tap than most knife makers would be. That's my guess anyway

[Larrin]

It's always been amazing to me that certain types of steel that were made for certain applications. Take ATS-34 for instance>> I heard that it was first made for turbine blades in jet engines> and it was an American knife maker that discovered it to be a great blade steel with the right heat treatment.

Also I got to chat with one of the reps from Crucible at one of the BLADE shows and I was commenting to him how much of a monster that 440V ( S60V) was to sharpen,. He told me he was not surprised because that particular steel was initially made for the "tool & die" industry.

I would think that's the case most of the time that most steels are first made for industrial applications because they are a much bigger market to tap than most knife makers would be. That's my guess anyway

ATS-34 was a copy of 154CM which was developed for bearings. Bearings that can go in jet engines but it is an old misconception that it is used in turbine blades.

S60V was not made for tool and die. Tool and die steels don’t need corrosion resistance.

It is true that most steels aren’t developed for knives because the market is relatively small. That is true of M390, Vanax, S60V, S90V, Maxamet, CruWear, etc. I also think a steel being “designed for knives” is sometimes overblown as steels that were designed for something else doesn’t make them any worse for knives. And a steel developed for knives isn’t guaranteed to be any better as a knife steel.

[VooDooChild]

The very first knife made of steel, was the first steel intended for knives. :p

[xceptnl]

The very first knife made of steel, was the first steel intended for knives. :p

Brilliant lol

[xceptnl]

...I also think a steel being “designed for knives” is sometimes overblown as steels that were designed for something else doesn’t make them any worse for knives. And a steel developed for knives isn’t guaranteed to be any better as a knife steel.

I agree with this logic as well Larrin, however I think that many of those tool steels are developed for industrial sheer types of blades where the cutting apex is a much larger bevel that the 30 to 40 degree angles we see with pocketable edge tools. Thus steels where edge stability is higher of a priority than it may be with cutting tool dies or machining cutters.

[Larrin]

I agree with this logic as well Larrin, however I think that many of those tool steels are developed for industrial sheer types of blades where the cutting apex is a much larger bevel that the 30 to 40 degree angles we see with pocketable edge tools. Thus steels where edge stability is higher of a priority than it may be with cutting tool dies or machining cutters.

Steels are not really designed in that way. There may be toughness targets or sometimes carbide size targets but they are not targeting a specific set of properties for a given edge angle. Plus tool and die steels range everywhere from S7 up to 15V. So it’s not as if there is one single set of properties intended for tool steels that is incompatible with knives.

[The Meat man]

...I also think a steel being “designed for knives” is sometimes overblown as steels that were designed for something else doesn’t make them any worse for knives. And a steel developed for knives isn’t guaranteed to be any better as a knife steel.

I agree with this logic as well Larrin, however I think that many of those tool steels are developed for industrial sheer types of blades where the cutting apex is a much larger bevel that the 30 to 40 degree angles we see with pocketable edge tools. Thus steels where edge stability is higher of a priority than it may be with cutting tool dies or machining cutters.

As an interesting aside, last year I was at FABTECH (a huge international industrial metal working and fabrication tradeshow) in Chicago and saw a booth featuring a steel supplier who specialized in particle steels. Sure enough they had a large die punch, or something of that sort, made from a solid chunk of CPM 10V. Weighed several pounds. I talked to them a bit about particle steels as knife blades and they were both familiar with the concept and the one guy told me he thought the best knife steel out there was Z-Wear.

[JD Spydo]

It's always been amazing to me that certain types of steel that were made for certain applications. Take ATS-34 for instance>> I heard that it was first made for turbine blades in jet engines> and it was an American knife maker that discovered it to be a great blade steel with the right heat treatment.

Also I got to chat with one of the reps from Crucible at one of the BLADE shows and I was commenting to him how much of a monster that 440V ( S60V) was to sharpen,. He told me he was not surprised because that particular steel was initially made for the "tool & die" industry.

I would think that's the case most of the time that most steels are first made for industrial applications because they are a much bigger market to tap than most knife makers would be. That's my guess anyway

ATS-34 was a copy of 154CM which was developed for bearings. Bearings that can go in jet engines but it is an old misconception that it is used in turbine blades.

S60V was not made for tool and die. Tool and die steels don’t need corrosion resistance.

It is true that most steels aren’t developed for knives because the market is relatively small. That is true of M390, Vanax, S60V, S90V, Maxamet, CruWear, etc. I also think a steel being “designed for knives” is sometimes overblown as steels that were designed for something else doesn’t make them any worse for knives. And a steel developed for knives isn’t guaranteed to be any better as a knife steel.

Sorry if I got all that wrong. I'm just going on what I was told. It was a representative of Crucible that were at the BLADE Show back in 2005 I believe it was that told me that 440V (S60V) was made for the tool & die market. Not sure why the guy would lie to me :confused: But at the same time I really didn't have any reason to disbelieve him.

It was actually in an old issue of Knives Illustrated ( I pretty sure of that one) where I read that they used ATS-34 for turbine blades in Jet engines. If this is also a lie I'm really getting angry. It just makes me wonder why people would give me false information like that :confused:

I have no idea what M390 was made for but it's currently one of my favorite blade steels for one of my EDC folders. But in a couple of years it might be obsolete as fast as things are changing. That really ticks me off that so many people pass false information like that :mad: Again I was just going on what I was told :confused:

[Larrin]

Sorry if I got all that wrong. I'm just going on what I was told. It was a representative of Crucible that were at the BLADE Show back in 2005 I believe it was that told me that 440V (S60V) was made for the tool & die market. Not sure why the guy would lie to me :confused: But at the same time I really didn't have any reason to disbelieve him.

It was actually in an old issue of Knives Illustrated ( I pretty sure of that one) where I read that they used ATS-34 for turbine blades in Jet engines. If this is also a lie I'm really getting angry. It just makes me wonder why people would give me false information like that :confused:

I have no idea what M390 was made for but it's currently one of my favorite blade steels for one of my EDC folders. But in a couple of years it might be obsolete as fast as things are changing. That really ticks me off that so many people pass false information like that :mad: Again I was just going on what I was told :confused:

154CM was advertised early on by knifemakers as a steel developed for jet engines. That was then conflated with turbine blades for whatever reason. Misinformation takes a long time to die. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/21/ ... es-legacy/

M390 was developed for processing of plastic. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/06/01/ ... -and-204p/

[pantagana23]

The very first knife made of steel, was the first steel intended for knives. :p

What about bronze age :D

[xceptnl]

The information rolling is is very enlightening both from a misconception standpoint as well as the underlying facts. Thank you Larrin for your input as well as others. Let's keep the discussion going. Would many of you say the misconceptions are based on marketing tools of knife companies combined with hearsay?

[ykspydiefan]

I sure appreciate the forum for education and access to correct information. That, and an open community that takes correction well, keeps me coming back.

I have little to nothing to offer in terms of knife knowledge, but I do have some knowledge about truth. By observation I have notice many people like to talk and tell stories. Most people like a good story and the telling more than hearing the truth. Misconceptions and lies are literary tools when used to build a good story. Misconceptions and lies can be used to make money or take power too. It takes so much energy to listen for and interpret what is true vs a good story.

For me I give artists a lot of room and I understand they are selling fiction. People in general get no room from me when it comes to reality. I try to trust and respect people and be wary since I also believe people will lie in any way to get money. I do not have much space for sales people. If the product does not sell its' self, then I am not buying.

It is another case of, Don't hate the player, hate the game. I have tried to use the words, "Sales Artist," instead of 'sales person." This helps me to remember that the Sales Artist is involved in the art of the sale, not history, not truth, not knife knowledge, or anything other than the sale.

All of the best sales pitches I have heard have been found on forums and written by people using knives. Thanks again forum and forum friends.

[wrdwrght]

Is it not fair to say that knife makers are an opportunist bunch?

In searching for that grail blade steel (or just value-judged one), they’ve tried any number of recipes, even ones where the resulting steels first found a role outside the world of knife making?

[sal]

SPY27 was developed with blades in mind. :p

Hey YKSpydiefan,

"You might find it hard to believe, but people will actually lie to you to get your money or your vote"

"Truth rings a bell mistaken for no other"

Thanx for your input.

sal