The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

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MichaelScott
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby MichaelScott » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:35 pm

JacksonKnives wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:46 pm

It's interesting to bring Kuhn into this.

IMO, the idea of a paradigm shift can't work when we're talking about a tool. It goes the other way around: tools are artifacts of paradigms.

That is, the closest thing we've seen to a paradigm shift in the knife industry is the shift from knives as tools to knives as collectible, functional art.
Yes, Kuhn is operating in a more fundamental universe and probably not appropriate here. I admit, “paradigm” and “innovation” are slippery terms. It’s also hard to conceive of how, “man grabs tool. Man separates matter. Man puts away tool.” cutting, if you will, could be revolutionized.

I merely hoped to encourage discussion about that rather than the “what’s the matter, you don’t like knives?” direction it often took.
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby steelcity16 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:55 pm

This has been the most entertaining thread since the "why no 3V in folders?" threads. :D To be clear, yes I think 3V belongs in one handed opening locking folders! :)
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby MichaelScott » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:01 pm

I merely started it. You all took it away so thanks to everyone!
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby RustyIron » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:35 pm

JacksonKnives wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:46 pm

That is, the closest thing we've seen to a paradigm shift in the knife industry is the shift from knives as tools to knives as collectible, functional art.

I know, right? What's with all these youngsters buying serious tools, then gussying them up and flashing them around like a bunch of Kansas City Gigolos?

Obsidian-wiki-Ceremonial_knife_Mexico_Alta_Highlands_Mixtec_c._1200-1500_AD_obsidian_turquoise_spondylus_shell_resin_-_De_Young_Museum_-_DSC00408.jpg
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby Danke » Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:38 pm

I think we're probably some time away from nano putty knives and tools.

I do think that in the near future; at least within my kid's lifetimes they won't buy knives in stores.

They will buy a file and a chunk of feedstock. Both will go into a home 3D printer that will overnight print out your 3V PM2 Lefty with a tanto blade and custom scales.

That's going to be the next leap forward.

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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby bdblue » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:18 pm

MichaelScott wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:37 pm
Every modern folder design must have these elements: an opening and closing mechanism that can be operated with one hand, a lock (in the majority of cases) that can be released with one hand, some kind of pocket clip
You've got it right, all 3 major features.

MichaelScott wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:37 pm
As we all know our ancestors functioned very capably with none of these
They lived in caves, cooked over wood fires, walked or rode horses, ... We have better stuff now.

MichaelScott wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:37 pm
I suspect it is exceptionally rare for a knife cutting task to require all that a modern one-handed knife offers. If one is in a situation that frequently requires that, a fixed blade knife is often a good choice.
I've noticed frequently that I need all of those features when I'm working. I find myself in a situation where I'm holding something that urgently needs to be cut in one hand, so I have to pull out the knife with one hand, open it with one hand, cut what I'm trying to cut, close the knife with one hand, and put it back in my pocket. Of course I could set down what I was going to cut, pull out my little knife, try to open it with a fingernail, pick up what I was going to cut and cut it, ... but sometimes I don't have time for all of that. I appreciate the benefits of those features every time I use my knife, even if I don't always need all of the features.

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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby Bloke » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:22 pm

I wonder what more can actually be done to innovate and revolutionise knife design?

How strong do locks in folders actually need to be? How much easier to open can a folder be made? Are custom heat coloured titanium clips better than a simple wire clip? Are petrified mammoth tusk scales that much better than FRN scales? How much more betterer is S110V than VG-10? It’s all barking nonsense to everyone except for a mob of kooks like us here.

It never ceases to amuse me when terms like “ergonomic’ are used to describe modern folding knives with clips … and the list goes on and on.

“I designed this knife with a subtle negative rake to the blade with a little more/less belly and the handle with a slight palm swell … etc. etc.” Ah, hahaha! How innovative! Why didn’t anyone else think of this? :rolleyes:

I find it all quite farcical. Akin to painting a wooden wagon wheel red and claiming it’s now much more betterer and fasterer than it was before it was painted.

Anyhow, I s’pose at the end of the day we all have different expectations and prerequisites but the fact remains knives are knives are knives and I only use mine to cut stuff. Like so many here I have more knives than I can poke a stick at including a few pretty flash ones and often wonder what was I thinking, what’s the difference and who in their right mind would have so many knives?

As it goes, for about a year now all I’ve carried is my SE HB Ladybug. It looks like it came out of the $2 Bin at the local hardware store but from where I’m standing it’s the most innovative, cable and versatile knife I own, but what would I know? Ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha! :)
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby Sumdumguy » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:31 pm

RustyIron wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 6:35 pm

Kansas City Gigolos?
Haha, I guess that's a bit more PC than it was originally!

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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby standy99 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:38 pm

Bloke wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:22 pm
Like so many here I have more knives than I can poke a stick at including a few pretty flash ones and often wonder what was I thinking, what’s the difference and who in their right mind would have so many knives?
Talking about stick poking.....

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https://www.instructables.com/id/Popsic ... itchblade/
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby Bloke » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:01 pm

standy99 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:38 pm
Talking about stick poking.....
Ah, hahaha! Good on you, Andy!

We’ll have grandkiddies over tonight and the little boy loves knives so we’ll make a few and hope he doesn’t stab his sister. :rolleyes:
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby James Y » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:29 pm

Bloke wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 7:22 pm
I wonder what more can actually be done to innovate and revolutionise knife design?

How strong do locks in folders actually need to be? How much easier to open can a folder be made? Are custom heat coloured titanium clips better than a simple wire clip? Are petrified mammoth tusk scales that much better than FRN scales? How much more betterer is S110V than VG-10? It’s all barking nonsense to everyone except for a mob of kooks like us here.
Bloke,
I suppose some future knife innovation will be a lightweight, bladeless handle with 2, 3, or more push buttons on it with blade icons. You push a button, and a hologram of that blade type (clip, spear, sheepsfoot, hawkbill, serrated, plain, etc.) option you choose appears. The hologram is a type of ‘solid’ enough light/laser to cut whatever material or object you need cut the same as a steel blade of the chosen shape would. Only the hologram blades never break, dull, rust, or ever need sharpening.

The only weaknesses are the “blades” can’t be used for anything other than cutting, and their cutting efficiency weakens or stops working altogether when the tiny but powerful replaceable battery in the handle begins running out. The same as knives today, there will be high-quality units, as well as cheapie “gas station” quality laser pocketknives. The laser “light” blades in the higher quality units have greater “solidity”, and thus superior cutting ability, during use. To “open” the blade, you press the desired blade icon twice, to “lock” it on; to “close” it, you press the icon once and the “blade” turns off/disappears.

There! Now this post has officially become this forum’s most ridiculous! :D

Jim
Last edited by James Y on Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:37 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby sal » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:32 pm

Hi Standy,

Thanx for the memory trip. I used to make them and use them in my sharpener demo. It was the one knife we couldn't sharpen with the Sharpmaker.

sal

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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby Bloke » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:39 pm

James Y wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:29 pm

There! Now this post has officially taken this thread to the level of the ridiculous! :D

Jim
Ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha, ah, hahaha! ;)

Hey Jim, funniest of all, mate, is you're probably not too far from the truth. Best of all, I'll likely be in the ground by then and won't have to worry about all my knives being obsolete. Ah, hahaha! :cool:
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby sal » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:49 pm

Humans are very innovative. "Constant improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".

Who woulda thunk in 1979 that we'd see a turn in the evolution of knives with a new idea. I have faith.

sal

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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby Takuan » Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:53 pm

sal wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:32 pm
Hi Standy,

Thanx for the memory trip. I used to make them and use them in my sharpener demo. It was the one knife we couldn't sharpen with the Sharpmaker.

sal
Did your popsicle knife have SpyderEdge? :)
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby curlyhairedboy » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 pm

I'll be honest - we've seen a much more massive trend of innovation on the side of pre-slicing or perforation for the general market rather than higher performance for the much smaller enthusiast market.

Most grocery stores now sell pre-peeled, pre-sliced veggies alongside their unmodified counterparts.

If the kitchen is the place where most knife use happens, then in the future I wouldn't be surprised to see carrots and celery genetically engineered to segment and break apart at neat intervals.

In addition, I would predict that product packaging and shipping boxes get to the point where they're easily openable, protective, and continue to make the use of pocket knifes less and less necessary.

The trend of human invention is towards greater convenience, but just as we enjoy sports and athletic competitions because of their constraints (e.g. sprinting isn't necessary in day to day life because we're not running away from apex predators), we can still harness artificial constraints on our day to day routines to make life more enjoyable. We choose to carry around a pocket knife and we choose to use it in a general way.
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby standy99 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:05 pm

Takuan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:53 pm
sal wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:32 pm
Hi Standy,

Thanx for the memory trip. I used to make them and use them in my sharpener demo. It was the one knife we couldn't sharpen with the Sharpmaker.

sal
Did your popsicle knife have SpyderEdge? :)
Like at school as a kid, give me a few minutes on the concrete stairs I can put a serrated edge on anything. :cool:
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby standy99 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:09 pm

curlyhairedboy wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 pm


In addition, I would predict that product packaging and shipping boxes get to the point where they're easily openable, protective, and continue to make the use of pocket knifes less and less necessary.
Ever tried to get into bubble blister packs lately, those suckers are getting harder to get in.....
Google how many people die a year trying to open them. Think it’s 9 in the US alone each year..
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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby steelcity16 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:40 pm

standy99 wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:09 pm
curlyhairedboy wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 pm


In addition, I would predict that product packaging and shipping boxes get to the point where they're easily openable, protective, and continue to make the use of pocket knifes less and less necessary.

Ever tried to get into bubble blister packs lately, those suckers are getting harder to get in.....
Google how many people die a year trying to open them. Think it’s 9 in the US alone each year..

These shears have never seen a blister pack they couldn't open with ease. One of the best purchases I ever made right here!

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Re: The perceived need for instantaneous one hand operation has driven folding knife design into a dead end

Postby Bill1170 » Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:14 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:04 am
I am more interested in one hand closing than one handed opening, although both are important.

The weakness of a fixed blade in many situations is the difficulty of re-sheathing. I can close (for example) my Manix 2 much more easily than I can re-sheath a fixed blade. Most importantly, I can close the Manix without diverting my primary focus from the task at hand. Sheathing a fixed blade usually requires that I make visual contact with the sheath and focus on it while I put the knife back into it, to avoid the possibility of stabbing myself. Closing the Manix does not require this. Clipping the Manix to my pocket _also_ does not require this, because it is closed, so I can push and slide it around to clip it in place with no risk of stabbing or cutting myself. This capability is quite important to me, and decreases the chance that I make a critical error at a bad moment. Genuinely 'one handed' situations often lend themselves better to a folding knife than a fixed blade, for this reason.

Edit. I see that I just basically replicated Evil D's post. So if you prefer, just view this post as a +1 to what he said.
These are all excellent points. The point about ladder work is extremely relevant for the construction trades. Not only is a folding knife safer to close and put away one-handed without looking (as compared with sheathing a fixed blade), but it is arguably safer if you fall, and easier to carry because it is much shorter (folded) than the comparable fixed blade. These are also compelling reasons for a bicyclist to carry a folder instead of a fixed blade. Someone already mentioned legalities, too. Here in CA it’s illegal to carry a “concealed” fixed blade, yet folders are legal whether concealed or exposed.


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