Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

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Michael Janich
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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Michael Janich » Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:02 am

Hey, All:

According to the AKTI website:

Federal Laws Regarding Knives
The Federal Switchblade Act – is the only federal knife law other than laws about knives in federal facilities. The 2009 Amendment clarified assisted-opening knives are not illegal switchblades.

Many knife companies, like Boker, import true daggers into the US. One prominent example is the Applegate-Fairbairn Dagger.

Although importing and manufacturing daggers is not a problem, many state laws prohibit the carry of dirks and daggers and fail to define those terms well, so the carry of a double-edged knife would definitely be risky if not outright illegal in many areas. Manufacturing something that can't be carried widely would make the knife more of a collector's piece than a usable tool.

The real question, in my opinion, is what is the function of the ring? It is often claimed that the ring of a karambit or SOCP dagger is faster on the draw than a conventional handle--until you actually try it. Putting your index finger in a hole is a fine motor skill. Grabbing something with your entire hand is much more of a gross motor skill and much better suited to high-stress situations.

From a martial arts perspective, the Chinese had ringed daggers centuries ago. The ring allowed them to be spun on the index finger just like a karambit. Large daggers with significant weight could produce long-range cuts that made some sense, but only as a martial arts weapon. With a smaller knife suitable for modern self-defense carry, spinning cuts don't do much. The extended "pull" cuts with a karambit only work if the blade has a pronounced hook. With a straight-bladed dagger design, these cuts have little or no effect.

The only plausible reason I have found for rings is deep concealment--like a law enforcement officer keeping a weapon-retention knife concealed behind his mag pouches to avoid having a bad guy access it. Even then, the ring his difficult to index and there are better options.

Stay safe,

Mike

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Dazen
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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Dazen » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:23 am

Michael,

Thank you for your information! I guess you could call this more of a “Jack of all trades” knife. With both edge types, SE and PE, you have full length of each to perform any task. With LC200N, it performs fantastic on or near the body and even in salt water environments. And, of course, you have a little of the self defense aspect, but this would be my last option for that if ever really needed. I personally like the ring for drawing the knife, whether it be from deep concealment or from a very deep leather or kydex sheath. I prefer to carry all my fixed blades horizontal across my belt in the back, and something thin and functional like this would be amazing!

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Evil D » Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:07 pm

I just got a notification about the upcoming Nightstick...if that were offered in SE on one edge I would consider that a fair compromise (I know this isn't my thread but for me that knife would fill the same duel edge type role).
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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby rangefinder » Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:35 pm

Michael Janich wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:02 am
Hey, All:

According to the AKTI website:

Federal Laws Regarding Knives
The Federal Switchblade Act – is the only federal knife law other than laws about knives in federal facilities. The 2009 Amendment clarified assisted-opening knives are not illegal switchblades.

Many knife companies, like Boker, import true daggers into the US. One prominent example is the Applegate-Fairbairn Dagger.

Although importing and manufacturing daggers is not a problem, many state laws prohibit the carry of dirks and daggers and fail to define those terms well, so the carry of a double-edged knife would definitely be risky if not outright illegal in many areas. Manufacturing something that can't be carried widely would make the knife more of a collector's piece than a usable tool.

The real question, in my opinion, is what is the function of the ring? It is often claimed that the ring of a karambit or SOCP dagger is faster on the draw than a conventional handle--until you actually try it. Putting your index finger in a hole is a fine motor skill. Grabbing something with your entire hand is much more of a gross motor skill and much better suited to high-stress situations.

From a martial arts perspective, the Chinese had ringed daggers centuries ago. The ring allowed them to be spun on the index finger just like a karambit. Large daggers with significant weight could produce long-range cuts that made some sense, but only as a martial arts weapon. With a smaller knife suitable for modern self-defense carry, spinning cuts don't do much. The extended "pull" cuts with a karambit only work if the blade has a pronounced hook. With a straight-bladed dagger design, these cuts have little or no effect.

The only plausible reason I have found for rings is deep concealment--like a law enforcement officer keeping a weapon-retention knife concealed behind his mag pouches to avoid having a bad guy access it. Even then, the ring his difficult to index and there are better options.

Stay safe,

Mike

I don't know about drawing or spinning the knife. My understanding is the end ring is for knife retention.

There are small "bird & trout" knives that have an end ring. You put your pinky through the ring and can let the knife fall free when you need to use the fingers on the knife hand for something. (e.g., you're attaching a fly or lure and you need to tie a knot, then you'll bring the knife back up to trim off the extra line.) This kind of knife has been around for about a century, so it's not a new design.

In the case of the SOCP dagger, the ring usually goes over the index finger and the handle is flat enough to fit between your hand and the gun grip. The theory is that if you're in a grappling situation where it's not practical to deploy a gun, you use the knife to "encourage" the attacker to break contact, then you can draw the gun without having to sheath or drop the knife. (See picture about halfway down this page: https://soldiersystems.net/2013/10/29/b ... cp-dagger/)

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby kennethsime » Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:24 pm

Takuan wrote:
Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:11 pm
AKTI has some interesting information about the definitions of "dirk" and "dagger": https://www.akti.org/resources/akti-app ... ns/#dagger. Generally, if it looks "stabby" and it's double-edged, then it's either a dagger (if the blade is long) or a dirk (if the blade is short and/or worn with your kilt).
Takuan, I was about to correct you when I clicked through to your link and then read the Oxford dictionary definition of Dirk.

Now, I'm going to try to correct the Oxford English Dictionary. :D

I think the Oxford definition, as cited by AKTI, must be referring to a sgian dubh, literally black knife, worn in the kilt hose. A Scottish dirk is a lot more like a Saxon's seax, just a bit smaller than a short sword and usually sharpened on one side. A dirk is too small to be a short sword, but larger than your average hunting knife. Like 15-20". It could be used as a camp knife, field knife, backup weapon, or complementary off-hand weapon. Here are some great examples. An ESEE Junglas would be relatively-small as a dirk.

A dagger is most-commonly defined as being a double-edged knife, designed primarily for thrusting or stabbing, but can range dramatically in size. I don't think it's fair to relate the two in terms of size since daggers range so much, but generally I would say that Dirks are generally larger knives, and while daggers have historically ranged quite a bit, most daggers sold today as real weapons are typically smaller (I'm thinking especially of the Benchmade SOCP here).

I'll agree with the AKTI that California's definitions especially are far too vague.
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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Bill1170 » Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:13 pm

Evil D wrote:
Wed Aug 26, 2020 9:45 am
If the ergonomics are such that it feels the same in your hand when using both edges (meaning, not shaped like a Swick) then it would be an interesting knife, sort of Spyderco's take on a double edged gardening knife (Hori-Hori) but with a little self defense potential mixed in with the ring.

Image

Unfortunately knives like this (double edged) fall into some knife laws and would be hard to sell and illegal to carry in a lot of areas.
I have a double-edged knife just like the Klein in your post. Due to knife laws, I only wield it when doing HVAC work. It’s intended for cutting flexible insulated duct and related materials. Mostly it sleeps, because my FFG SE Caribbean and Endela cut the stuff even better.

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Dazen » Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:50 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:07 pm
I just got a notification about the upcoming Nightstick...if that were offered in SE on one edge I would consider that a fair compromise (I know this isn't my thread but for me that knife would fill the same duel edge type role).
I guess you could have both edges, but I feel it could be so much more with the other attributes.

This is kind of what I was thinking. I’m not the master of ergos, I’ll leave that to the professionals.

Image
Last edited by Dazen on Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Dazen » Sat Aug 29, 2020 2:08 pm

Double

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby sal » Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:06 pm

Hi Mike,

Your knowledge and experience is always an asset to this forum.

Hi Dazen,

I really don't see much practical use for such a design. A "one size fits all and does everything" is in my opinion very challenging. If the ergos of your design are made to fit, then it's a totally different design. I agree with Mike. But I always appreciate knife afi's sharing their ideas and thoughts. Thanx much.

sal

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Hambone » Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:52 pm

Dazen wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:50 pm
Evil D wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:07 pm
I just got a notification about the upcoming Nightstick...if that were offered in SE on one edge I would consider that a fair compromise (I know this isn't my thread but for me that knife would fill the same duel edge type role).
I guess you could have both edges, but I feel it could be so much more with the other attributes.

This is kind of what I was thinking. I’m not the master of ergos, I’ll leave that to the professionals.

Image
Bottom line: you want a LC200N “SOCP type” knife, made by Spyderco.

We can all dream, but I have just accepted Benchmade owns that market. SOCPs alone make up the majority of my non-spyderco knifes.

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby sal » Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:18 pm

Hi Dazen,

If that's Benchmade's market, I'm not really into "Me too"trends. You might look into the "Swick", for similar application.

sal

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby James Y » Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:22 pm

TBH, I don’t see any advantages to having a finger ring, especially on the butt end, but only disadvantages. Too easy to get your finger broken (I’m assuming its intended purpose is self-defense). There are also legal issues not only with carrying a dagger, but especially if one were actually used.

Jim

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Dazen » Sun Aug 30, 2020 9:19 am

sal wrote:
Sat Aug 29, 2020 8:18 pm
Hi Dazen,

If that's Benchmade's market, I'm not really into "Me too"trends. You might look into the "Swick", for similar application.

sal

Thanks Sal,

I am getting a Swick 5 as well. I also don’t consider this a BM market because I don’t even consider the SOCP as an alternative to something like this. I would’ve loved a knife like this while in the Coast Guard, for as much sweat and salt water I dealt with. Make the handle wider, or anything else, to set this apart from the SOCP market.

The ring would be mainly for retention and drawing, and very little self defense. My Roadie plays about as much of a self defense role as this would.

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Hambone » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:23 am

Dazen,

Don’t take it the wrong way I would really love something similar to your drawing - maybe not the tanto shaped PE. I agree a SOCP could not fill a lot of the roles the above likely would, but it would fill almost all of the roles of the SOCP (depending on blade shape).

I will be picking up a swick 5, but I don’t think it will be able kick very many SOCPs off of kits. Exception would be maybe some maritime kits.

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby rangefinder » Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:59 am

It doesn't have a ring, but have you looked at the Spyderco Warrior or Pygmy Warrior fixed blades? They have a curved (not a tanto) blade, but they have a cutting edge on one side and serrations on the spine. The full size Warrior used H1 steel, so it's also rustproof. The smaller Pygmy Warrior uses BD1, but it is coated so it should be reasonably rust resistant.

Both are discontinued, but can probably be found on the used market.

Warrior satin: https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/FB25BK/444
Warrior black: https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/details/FB25BBK/630
Pygmy Warrior: https://www.spyderco.com/catalog/detail ... roduct=887

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Michael Janich » Mon Aug 31, 2020 7:21 am

rangefinder wrote:
Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:35 pm
I don't know about drawing or spinning the knife. My understanding is the end ring is for knife retention.

There are small "bird & trout" knives that have an end ring. You put your pinky through the ring and can let the knife fall free when you need to use the fingers on the knife hand for something. (e.g., you're attaching a fly or lure and you need to tie a knot, then you'll bring the knife back up to trim off the extra line.) This kind of knife has been around for about a century, so it's not a new design.

In the case of the SOCP dagger, the ring usually goes over the index finger and the handle is flat enough to fit between your hand and the gun grip. The theory is that if you're in a grappling situation where it's not practical to deploy a gun, you use the knife to "encourage" the attacker to break contact, then you can draw the gun without having to sheath or drop the knife. (See picture about halfway down this page: https://soldiersystems.net/2013/10/29/b ... cp-dagger/)
Hey, Rangefinder:

I'm very familiar with bird and trout knives and the purpose of the ring on that style of blade. Interestingly, the ring on traditional karambits was there for the same reason.

I also understand the theory behind the SOCP dagger. I just don't agree with it. Well-trained pistol shooters have a very reflexive immediate action drill. If you hear a click instead of a bang, you "tap, rack, ready." With a knife and a gun in the same hand, that becomes "stab, scream, bleed" ...

Stay safe,

Mike

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Re: Double Edged Finger Ring Fixed Blade

Postby Dazen » Mon Aug 31, 2020 12:49 pm

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