sharpening issues

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ladybug93
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sharpening issues

#1

Post by ladybug93 »

alright... i have a sharpmaker and i am getting both pe and se reasonably sharp with it. but, i am having the following issues:

1. i can't seem to get the belly as sharp as the straighter sections of the blades. i just noticed this while working on a friend's delica. the straighter portion makes hair jump off my arm, but the more curved section won't shave. it also doesn't cut paper as well in this section.

2. i can't get any blade nearly as sharp as i've seen some people here get them. i can sort of push cut printer paper, but i doubt i could do the same with phone book paper (i don't have any to try) and i'm not anywhere near whittling hair with any edge i sharpen.

3. my spyderedges are sharp enough to make quick work of cardboard, but i can't push cut with any of the serrations. i don't know how to get it as sharp as you guys do.

4. i have a hard time using the flats on the sharpmaker stones and tend to stick to the corners.


so, this is in no way a complaint against the sharpmaker or any edge type. my edges are good enough, but i want them to be better and the problem must be with me, based on what i've seen from others around here. any tips you all have to take my edges to the next level would be great.

thanks in advance. :)
Last edited by ladybug93 on Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
keep your knife sharp and your focus sharper.
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
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Albatross
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Re: sharpening issues

#2

Post by Albatross »

It sounds like you're just not fully apexing the knife at the belly. Make sure you can feel a burr the entire length of the blade, then sharpen the other side, forming a full burr, then remove the burr and swap sides again for the next stone.

I'll let others chime in on SE sharpening.

There's nothing wrong with using the corners, just make sure to use very light pressure, because the thinness of the corners mean all the force is applied to the edge of your knife, in a very small area. Contrast that with the flats, where pressure is better distributed, over a wider area, putting less strain on the edge, producing a quality edge with less skill needed. Personally, I always had better results from the corners and could get a knife to whittle hair by sharpening that way. It took time, and there were times where I thought I was just bad at sharpening, but I eventually got the hang of it.

One of my old bad habits, was rushing the sharpening. I didn't do the edge any favors by rushing it, and often had different levels of sharpness on the tip, belly, and flats. If you set aside enough time, take it slow, check the edge often, form a full burr (tip to heel) on each side, and fully remove the burr, you'll have a ridiculously sharp knife.
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Sharp Guy
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Re: sharpening issues

#3

Post by Sharp Guy »

Keep working at it. You'll find your own personal technique and you'll be getting shaving sharp edges the whole length of the blade. I've had a Sharpmaker for 30 years. I remember when I first got a SM it took me awhile before I could get my knives really sharp. Then I took a break from knives for several years. When I got my old Sharpmaker out a few years ago to sharpen some S30V knives (Sage 1 & 2) that I bought from a friend it took me awhile to get the hang of it again. Now I get amazingly sharp edges right off the Sharpmaker fairly quickly
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Bemo
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Re: sharpening issues

#4

Post by Bemo »

I'm glad you're bringing this up. I also get decent results on PE and my SE is not up to push cutting either. My PE edges from the sharpmaker aren't as sharp as my hand sharpened edges done on my stones. Again not sure if that's the nature of the beast or if there's something I can do to improve my sharpmaker edges.
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sal
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Re: sharpening issues

#5

Post by sal »

Hi Ladybug,

First I would suggest a loupe 10X - 15X. When I was training our sales crew to demonstrate our sharpener, I told them that I was number 2 teacher, loupe was number one teacher. It's really easier to learn to see what 's going on with the edge when using a loupe.

Only a few possibilities:

1. The blade must be held straight up and down as rigidly as possible. If the wrist is twisting, the edge will not be as sharp.
2. If you hold your head over the sharpmaker, sometimes the point of view does not get as clear a view as if your head is back about 18".
3. Pressure is critical and take a bit of practice to get the knack. Too hard and the stone damages the edge, too soft and steel is not removed.
4. After a bit of practice, you'll develop your own "tricks".
5. The stones should be clean, When they're loaded up with steel, they're not as effective.

Keep us posted.

sal

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Sharp Guy
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Re: sharpening issues

#6

Post by Sharp Guy »

Bemo wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:33 pm
I'm glad you're bringing this up. I also get decent results on PE and my SE is not up to push cutting either. My PE edges from the sharpmaker aren't as sharp as my hand sharpened edges done on my stones. Again not sure if that's the nature of the beast or if there's something I can do to improve my sharpmaker edges.
There's no reason you shouldn't be able to get really sharp edges from the Sharpmaker. Whether or not they'll whittle hair depends on how much effort you put into it. I've only actually tried the hair whittling thing a couple times but I know now it can be done. I usually use the Sharpmaker brown, and sometimes fine, stones until hair easily shaves off my arm and the edge glides through phone book paper. That's good enough for me
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Bemo
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Re: sharpening issues

#7

Post by Bemo »

Thanks Sal and Sharp Guy that should be helpful going forward. I tend to use the SM when I need a quick fresh edge in the kitchen or for SE blades. I'll try the loup and try taking my time and going slow and see how that goes.
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ladybug93
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Re: sharpening issues

#8

Post by ladybug93 »

thank you all for the advice. i'm definitely getting a loupe now and cleaning my stones (i've been meaning to do that, but just haven't yet).

honestly, i'm not sure i'm getting a burr. at least i don't feel it all the time. i usually start with 20-50 strokes per side on the medium stones and then work my way down incrementally. then i switch to the fine stones and do the same thing. toward the end, i use increasingly light pressure.
keep your knife sharp and your focus sharper.
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
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Re: sharpening issues

#9

Post by RustyIron »

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:03 pm
1. i can't seem to get the belly as sharp as the straighter sections of the blades.
Nothing to worry about. It's likely that the belly gets used a little more harshly than the rest of the edge, so it requires a little more attention to restore its keenness.
ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:03 pm
2. i can't get any blade nearly as sharp as i've seen some people here get them.

Again, nothing to worry about. Some folks here are very talented, and you'll never be able to match their skill. Others might be prone to the use of hyperbolic language. Use the pros as inspiration, ignore the claims of others.
ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:03 pm
i want them to be better and the problem must be with me,
Right on. Probably EVERYBODY here wants their edges to be better. Sal had the best advice for your first step: get a magnifier. The one I found most useful for improvement of my edges was a Kingmas 60x magnifier that costs seven bucks off Amazon. I have a variety, but I think that one will give you the most bang for your buck. Look closely at your dull belly, and you'll be shocked to see where you missed the mark.

The other tip I'll lend is to make every step perfect. Don't move on to the next stone or angle until your current edge has as perfect an apex as you can create. Be patient. Don't be a hamfist. Be a craftsman.
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Re: sharpening issues

#10

Post by qwkzotc »

Thanks for asking this. I had never heard the tip about using a loop before and will start doing so. Also, I don't need phone book paper, my mailbox gets filled up with advertising flyers/material every day that's about the same quality. If you get these, don't toss them, cut them.
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Re: sharpening issues

#11

Post by Sharp Guy »

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:17 pm
thank you all for the advice. i'm definitely getting a loupe now and cleaning my stones (i've been meaning to do that, but just haven't yet).

honestly, i'm not sure i'm getting a burr. at least i don't feel it all the time. i usually start with 20-50 strokes per side on the medium stones and then work my way down incrementally. then i switch to the fine stones and do the same thing. toward the end, i use increasingly light pressure.
I used to raise a burr every time I sharpened whether I was touching up or reprofiling. Now I only try to raise a burr when reprofiling on my Hapstone. With that system I'm working with one side of the edge at a time so it makes sense to me to do that.

Since I bought my Hapstone I really only use my Sharpmaker for touch ups. Depending on how dull a blade is I'll generally use alternating strokes. If the edge is pretty dull and I'm not ready to reprofile yet I may work one side for a few strokes and then switch to the other. Sometimes I may even use a down and up motion starting at the heel and gradually moving toward the tip. I finish with a full stroke or two to even things out before doing the same on the other side. I never check for a burr regardless of how I'm using the Sharpmaker and never fail to get the edge sharp to my satisfaction. Not saying raising a burr is wrong but I got away from worrying about it as I refined the technique that works best for me.
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Sharp Guy
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Re: sharpening issues

#12

Post by Sharp Guy »

qwkzotc wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:05 pm
Thanks for asking this. I had never heard the tip about using a loop before and will start doing so. Also, I don't need phone book paper, my mailbox gets filled up with advertising flyers/material every day that's about the same quality. If you get these, don't toss them, cut them.
I loupe or some type of magnification is a must especially as your eyes get older. I don't use mine all the time but it sure is nice to have when you need it

I don't think I've ever received advertising flyers in my mailbox that's as thin as phone book paper. I still receive a phone book yearly but if I didn't I'd switch to newspaper because it's almost as fine. I mostly use feel and arm hair to test my edge now though. I also keep a small block of hardwood on my workbench that I'll whittle on to see how the edge bites
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most!
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Re: sharpening issues

#13

Post by Wartstein »

ladybug93 wrote:
Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:03 pm
.....

1. i can't seem to get the belly as sharp as the straighter sections of the blades. i just noticed this while working on a friend's delica. the straighter portion makes hair jump off my arm, but the more curved section won't shave. it also doesn't cut paper as well in this section.
...

I may post a vid made by Lance / Surfgringo, perhaps it might address your issue concerning getting the belly as sharp as the rest of the blade (skip forward to about 3:50) https://youtu.be/DI8lTj-F8gA

When following the curve of the belly, it perhaps takes a bit of practice or at least awareness to keep the edge perfectly engaged with the sharpening surface of the rod.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: sharpening issues

#14

Post by tonijedi »

Use the sharpie method, you may not be hitting the apex.
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Re: sharpening issues

#15

Post by JuPaul »

At first on the Sharpmaker I had trouble apexing the edge/raising a burr on one side, but not the other. I just had a harder time keeping the blade consistently perpendicular to the base on one side. I followed Sal's advice and got a loupe and a sharpie, which definitely helped me to see the problem. Now I usually use a KME, and in addition to the loupe I also keep a little keychain flashlight in my kit, which really helps me to see if I've raised a burr along the entire edge (since the light will reflect off the burr if held at the right angle).

It's good to think about these things again...now that I've gotten more into SE, I need to pull out the sharpmaker again as I think it'll be a lot quicker for SE than the KME.
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Re: sharpening issues

#16

Post by jpm2 »

tonijedi wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:00 am
Use the sharpie method, you may not be hitting the apex.
Yes.
Here's my example a fully apexed edge after applying sharpie marks.
Sometimes there's a little left I can't see without a 10x loupe.

Image

The 1st inch of my blades usually get the most use. Between this and tips being thicker near the edge, they are last to apex.
Diamond/cbn rods greatly speed up the process.
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Wartstein
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Re: sharpening issues

#17

Post by Wartstein »

jpm2 wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 8:24 am
tonijedi wrote:
Sun Aug 23, 2020 4:00 am
Use the sharpie method, you may not be hitting the apex.
Yes.
Here's my example a fully apexed edge after applying sharpie marks.
Sometimes there's a little left I can't see without a 10x loupe.


The 1st inch of my blades usually get the most use. Between this and tips being thicker near the edge, they are last to apex.
Diamond/cbn rods greatly speed up the process.

Good alternative to just apply several vertical sharpie marks instead of "coloring" the whole edge! I´ll have to try this!
I also highly recommend the CBN (I have those, work great) or diamond rods (never had those, guess they are as good as the CBN)

/ And: I profited (actually still profit, since I am still not really good at sharpening) from using sharpie AND a 10x loupe too! My sharpening improved a lot by that.
For those looking for a loupe: I started a thread once asking for advice on loupes, and actually got a ton of good replies. Here is the link to this thread: https://forum.spyderco.com/viewtopic.php?t=82628
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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sal
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Re: sharpening issues

#18

Post by sal »

Hi Mr Joe,

Welcome to our forum.

sal
JohnDoe99
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Re: sharpening issues

#19

Post by JohnDoe99 »

Get a jig-system of some sort, your angles are not consistent enough. You want your edge's angles to be as straight/consistent as possible, and a jig-system will always be more accurate than freehanding. I found DMT's "aligner" setup to be a good cheap option for setting the angles. Once the angles are set to the apex, then freehand with medium ceramic.

I carried a kershaw sandvik steel for years before coming back to Spyderco, and when I did come back it was s110v. Talk about a "rude awakening."
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sal
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Re: sharpening issues

#20

Post by sal »

Hi John,

Yes, there is a considerable difference between steels that is not visible to the eye. How do you like the S110V now?

sal
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