Complex curves

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Cambertree
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Re: Complex curves

Postby Cambertree » Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:13 am

wrdwrght wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 8:48 am
Cambertree wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:13 am
Nice thread, Marc.

The Ulize looks like it was made by G. Sakai.

You probably already saw this pic I posted in the Kris thread. It shows a whole array of specific nomenclature for features and parts of the Kris.

Image

It was from a display of Krises and other Malay, Dutch, Portuguese and English edged weapons and tools at the museum in Malacca.
Thanks, Cambertree. I hope it becomes a useful stopping point for others. Your thought-provoking image improves it.

Had Ed Schempp included the Tuntong Keris, we could have said his Kris is both a recurve and a reverse-s.
Thanks. :)

Yes, I’d be interested in seeing some more Spydies with interesting curves to their blades here.

Spyderco seem to be particularly good, not only at understanding the cutting dynamics of curves and negative blade angles, but also at the way a knife operates in conjunction with different muscle groups, and arm movements.

Schempp in particular seems to be a master at this.

Could anyone provide some input about what the Spyderco Khukuri is like to use?

What about the Schempp Rock?

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zuludelta
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Re: Complex curves

Postby zuludelta » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:13 am
Could anyone provide some input about what the Spyderco Khukuri is like to use?

What about the Schempp Rock?
I haven't handled the Khukuri so I can't help you there but I own a Schempp Rock & have used it as a camp/outdoors/gardening knife over the past 3 years or so.

While the Schempp Rock looks like it's designed to be a chopper, I find that where it really excels is in clearing vegetation (sort of like a small machete or barong). It's remarkably light for its size, making it very controllable and very, very nimble in hand (the recurve, handle design, and balance makes it very easy to perform quick, powerful "snap cuts" using one's wrist).

It's still possible to chop wood effectively with it, of course—due to its light weight and the forward cant of the blade relative to the handle, it is easy enough to make up for the lack of blade mass with increased acceleration on the downswing. That said, if one is looking for a one-handed tool to be primarily used for chopping wood, I'd suggest a heavier knife or, you know, a hand axe or hatchet.

The handle is a good fit for my hand (I wear small/medium-sized work gloves) and I think those who wear large-sized gloves will still be able to maintain a solid four-finger grip in use. Those with XL or XXL hands will probably have to use the choil to get all four fingers firmly around the handle (I prefer the choked-up grip on the Schempp Rock anyway, for tasks that don't require the full reach).

All in all, I think the Schempp Rock is a solid general-purpose outdoors knife. I probably wouldn't recommend it outright to someone who is just looking for a solid general-purpose outdoors knife, though—it's pretty price-y relative to similarly capable offerings in the fixed-blade market. But for those who want to get their hands on an effective tool that also happens to be a Schempp design, I say go for it.

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Cambertree
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Re: Complex curves

Postby Cambertree » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:22 am

zuludelta wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:13 pm
I haven't handled the Khukuri so I can't help you there but I own a Schempp Rock & have used it as a camp/outdoors/gardening knife over the past 3 years or so.

While the Schempp Rock looks like it's designed to be a chopper, I find that where it really excels is in clearing vegetation (sort of like a small machete or barong). It's remarkably light for its size, making it very controllable and very, very nimble in hand (the recurve, handle design, and balance makes it very easy to perform quick, powerful "snap cuts" using one's wrist).

It's still possible to chop wood effectively with it, of course—due to its light weight and the forward cant of the blade relative to the handle, it is easy enough to make up for the lack of blade mass with increased acceleration on the downswing. That said, if one is looking for a one-handed tool to be primarily used for chopping wood, I'd suggest a heavier knife or, you know, a hand axe or hatchet.

The handle is a good fit for my hand (I wear small/medium-sized work gloves) and I think those who wear large-sized gloves will still be able to maintain a solid four-finger grip in use. Those with XL or XXL hands will probably have to use the choil to get all four fingers firmly around the handle (I prefer the choked-up grip on the Schempp Rock anyway, for tasks that don't require the full reach).

All in all, I think the Schempp Rock is a solid general-purpose outdoors knife. I probably wouldn't recommend it outright to someone who is just looking for a solid general-purpose outdoors knife, though—it's pretty price-y relative to similarly capable offerings in the fixed-blade market. But for those who want to get their hands on an effective tool that also happens to be a Schempp design, I say go for it.
Thanks for the excellent review, ZD. :)

How does it handle when doing fine work like notching tentpegs using the part of the blade just in front of the handle, or shaving tinder?

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Re: Complex curves

Postby zuludelta » Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:57 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:22 am
Thanks for the excellent review, ZD. :)

How does it handle when doing fine work like notching tentpegs using the part of the blade just in front of the handle, or shaving tinder?
It shaves tinder just fine, what with the generous choil/scallop for the index finger. With my index finger in the choil & my thumb resting flat on the spine (past the jimped recess at the top of the handle), I feel like I have very, very fine control of the cutting edge just past the ricasso. I draw/sketch as a hobby, and I've occasionally used the Schempp Rock to put on "custom tips" of varying widths & shapes on my charcoal sticks & charcoal pencils when drawing outdoors. To put that task in perspective, this is something I normally do with a Dragonfly 2.

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Re: Complex curves

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:18 am

wrdwrght wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:23 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 6:06 am
I was fortunate when I got my first 3 Dodo models back in the 2003-2004 era. I was most lucky when I was able to get one of the earlier Dodo models in SE. These Curved Blades in SE are awesome and it always seemed strange to me that Spyderco didn't try more SE models with the Recurve, Reverse S and KRIS type models.

Evil D and I both have been lobbying hard for a serrated version of the ULIZE. The Dodo in SE was very aggressive for a blade as short as it is. Bottom Line: These "Curved Blades" have their place. But I believe that they would have even a bigger market share if more of them were offered in SE.
I’m hardly opposed to the Spyderedge, but would definitely like to see the pattern get refined into rounder points for greater utility (the Civilian’s nasty points can stay just as they are :eek:).

And such a refinement would almost certainly improve the cutting power of the already edge-lengthened models considered here.
I definitely think you're on to something there for sure. I've brought up the subject of different serration patterns on more than one occasion but so far it hasn't gotten a lot of interest :confused: And I can't figure that one out either. Because take two of Spyderco's classic kitchen knives the K-04 & K-05 models. They both have a more rounded and wavy type of serration pattern. And both of those knives would not be nearly as useful for kitchen/food chores with those "spikey" Japan made type of serrations.

Now each serration pattern has it's place. But I do agree that these curved models I do also think would fare better with a different serration pattern than the standard, classic Spyderedge. But even with that said I still believe the standard serration patterns would perform better on most of the Hawkbill models in SE than they do in PE. I just know deep in my gut that the ULIZE recurve model would be a mega-beast in SE regardless of the SE pattern IMO.

I also think that it should be mandatory for all Hawkbill blades to be made available in SE. I believe the Superhawk model would have sold more than ten times as many units had it been available in SE.

But your point is well taken and should be a thread of it's own.

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Re: Complex curves

Postby wrdwrght » Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:36 am

JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:18 am
But your point is well taken and should be a thread of it's own.
Before we go “big”, where in the following do we disagree?

Longer edges require fewer passes than shorter ones (assuming same edge-treatment).

A serrated edge allows a longer blade to be made shorter, and makes the shortened blade more efficient than a non-serrated blade of equal length.

Surfaces of material to be cut can make serrated edges underperform (either snag or chatter).

Blade shape can compensate for OR magnify underperforming serrations.

Snaggy SE hawkbills, reverse-Ss, and wharnies are better performers than snaggy SE concave blades.

SE snag and/or chatter can diminish the pleasure taken in cutting a surface in spite of knowing the magic of edge-lengthening.

Rounded SE teeth apparently remove the real bummer that is a chattering SE convex blade (thank you, Evil D).

Not all Spyderedges are the same, but even the more moderate teeth of the Caribbean are not rounded.

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Re: Complex curves

Postby JD Spydo » Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:11 pm

wrdwrght wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:36 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:18 am
But your point is well taken and should be a thread of it's own.
Before we go “big”, where in the following do we disagree?

Longer edges require fewer passes than shorter ones (assuming same edge-treatment).

A serrated edge allows a longer blade to be made shorter, and makes the shortened blade more efficient than a non-serrated blade of equal length.

Surfaces of material to be cut can make serrated edges underperform (either snag or chatter).

Blade shape can compensate for OR magnify underperforming serrations.

Snaggy SE hawkbills, reverse-Ss, and wharnies are better performers than snaggy SE concave blades.

SE snag and/or chatter can diminish the pleasure taken in cutting a surface in spite of knowing the magic of edge-lengthening.

Rounded SE teeth apparently remove the real bummer that is a chattering SE convex blade (thank you, Evil D).

Not all Spyderedges are the same, but even the more moderate teeth of the Caribbean are not rounded.
The only thing I see that I might differ with you somewhat is the one about Hawkbills having that more pointy/spikey type serration. The cutting jobs I use Hawkbills for I've found that pattern to work well. Because for pulling cutting jobs I kind of find that pattern somewhat advantageous. But I wouldn't mind checking out a Hawkbill the size of a Spyderhawk with a more rounded serration pattern. I got a feeling at some point Spyderco's serrations are going to evolve into a different pattern >> probably more rounded as time goes on.

It's hard to say anything concrete about Reverse S and some recurve designs because we really haven't got to test drive any of those yet. But I do suspect that those blade types/designs will do well in SE.

Other than that I can pretty much agree with all your observations.

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Re: Complex curves

Postby wrdwrght » Mon Sep 07, 2020 1:30 pm

JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 12:11 pm
wrdwrght wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 10:36 am
JD Spydo wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 5:18 am
But your point is well taken and should be a thread of it's own.
Before we go “big”, where in the following do we disagree?

Longer edges require fewer passes than shorter ones (assuming same edge-treatment).

A serrated edge allows a longer blade to be made shorter, and makes the shortened blade more efficient than a non-serrated blade of equal length.

Surfaces of material to be cut can make serrated edges underperform (either snag or chatter).

Blade shape can compensate for OR magnify underperforming serrations.

Snaggy SE hawkbills, reverse-Ss, and wharnies are better performers than snaggy SE concave blades.

SE snag and/or chatter can diminish the pleasure taken in cutting a surface in spite of knowing the magic of edge-lengthening.

A powerful pull on an SE hawkbill will overwhelm snags and even the unwelcome sensation of snagginess.

Rounded SE teeth apparently remove the real bummer that is a chattering SE convex blade (thank you, Evil D for pushing the envelop), and they may lessen the (largely unproven) possibility of chattering on recurves and reverse-Ss.

Not all Spyderedges are the same, but even the more moderate teeth of the Caribbean are not rounded (at least not enough for Evil D).
The only thing I see that I might differ with you somewhat is the one about Hawkbills having that more pointy/spikey type serration. The cutting jobs I use Hawkbills for I've found that pattern to work well. Because for pulling cutting jobs I kind of find that pattern somewhat advantageous. But I wouldn't mind checking out a Hawkbill the size of a Spyderhawk with a more rounded serration pattern. I got a feeling at some point Spyderco's serrations are going to evolve into a different pattern >> probably more rounded as time goes on.
See highlights above. Closer?

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sal
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Re: Complex curves

Postby sal » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:13 pm

Our serrations work better after they've been sharpened on a Sharpmaker a couple of times which slightly rounds the corners which pretty much eliminates any snagging.

When we first started making serrated edges in 1982, most of our sales were for serrations. As time when on and many of our competitors made serrations, which didn't perform as well and gave serrations a bad rap. Also, steels were developed that stayed sharper longer so one of the advantages of serrations (staying sharp) were less important. Now many are realizing that not all serrations are created equal and our serrations are having a resurgence, in my opinion.

sal

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Re: Complex curves

Postby Wartstein » Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:40 pm

sal wrote:
Mon Sep 07, 2020 3:13 pm
Our serrations work better after they've been sharpened on a Sharpmaker a couple of times which slightly rounds the corners which pretty much eliminates any snagging.

When we first started making serrated edges in 1982, most of our sales were for serrations. As time when on and many of our competitors made serrations, which didn't perform as well and gave serrations a bad rap. Also, steels were developed that stayed sharper longer so one of the advantages of serrations (staying sharp) were less important. Now many are realizing that not all serrations are created equal and our serrations are having a resurgence, in my opinion.

sal

Serrations DO have a resurgence, at least on this forum, and I am one of those who constantly advocates for more (ffg) SE folders and that more people give the Spyderedge a fair chance.

But, Sal: Do you have numbers how this is on the general market? Do customers who don´t follow the threads on this forum also realize how great SE performs and that the "hard to sharpen" and "good just for a limited number of certain tasks" are really just total myths?
Are there actually more SE knives being sold now than in the previous years?
Last edited by Wartstein on Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cambertree
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Re: Complex curves

Postby Cambertree » Mon Sep 07, 2020 8:00 pm

zuludelta wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:57 pm
Cambertree wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:22 am
Thanks for the excellent review, ZD. :)

How does it handle when doing fine work like notching tentpegs using the part of the blade just in front of the handle, or shaving tinder?
It shaves tinder just fine, what with the generous choil/scallop for the index finger. With my index finger in the choil & my thumb resting flat on the spine (past the jimped recess at the top of the handle), I feel like I have very, very fine control of the cutting edge just past the ricasso. I draw/sketch as a hobby, and I've occasionally used the Schempp Rock to put on "custom tips" of varying widths & shapes on my charcoal sticks & charcoal pencils when drawing outdoors. To put that task in perspective, this is something I normally do with a Dragonfly 2.
Excellent rundown, thanks for your insights, Zuludelta. :)

Yes, one of the features I like in a larger knife, is that it is balanced and nimble enough to do finer work with the section of edge right in front of the handle.

It’s also a satisfying technique to have your edge on those longer knives sharpened in slightly different ways, as you use parts of the blade for different applications.

I think I’ll be looking out for that Schempp Rock now.

Takuan - thanks for the info on the Knockwood knives Whale blade mod.

Owning a Whale blade when you’re not using it for that purpose, must be the ultimate Spydie-nerd acquisition. :D

But I’d really like one of those modded knives! :rolleyes: :cool: :spyder:

Sal - that’s very interesting about SE blades having a resurgence lately.

Obviously in our relatively small community on the forum, there are many SE acolytes, but like brother Wartstein, I’d also be curious to know if this resurgence is reflected in the larger knife buying public. :)


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