CPM-S60V – The Forgotten Super Steel

[Larrin]

New article about a steel not often discussed – CPM-S60V. The steel never seemed to take off and now is more or less forgotten. I covered the steel’s development and use in knives including why it didn’t succeed. Then tests of its toughness and edge retention and whether I think it should make a comeback. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/08/17/ ... per-steel/

[qwkzotc]

Thanks Larrin: I enjoyed this read. This is very useful and timely information for me as I recently acquired a long sought after early Millie in 440V. It is a user but in very nice condition. While researching it in SpydieWiki I came across the following reference:

Statement from Sal Glesser on the Spyderco forums:

"Spyderco was the first production company to use Crucibles particle metallurgy in production knives. I personally went to Crucible with crew to begin the project in the mid 90's. We began with S60V while is was still being called CPM 440V. We had no problem getting it hard, but in a hi 50's to low 60's it was so brittle that it would crack if dropped on concrete. We continue to experiment until we reached the conclusion that 55/56 worked best for the steel in knife blades. In the end, we dropped it. It was too hard to sharpen for customers, though edge retention was good. I don't think we would use it again."
Sal
[1]

References
The entire thread containing Mr. Glesser's comment can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=80022%7C
http://www.spydiewiki.com/index.php?title=CPM-440V

Dan

[Larrin]

Yes I saw that post from Sal. Thanks for sharing it here.

[Ankerson]

I always figured it was a HT protocol issue with S60V, seemed like it had a lot of potential to me.

Also take into count what a lot of people used to sharpen their knives with back then. And a lot of them had issues with 440C and later S30V... I never did personally because I was using SIC even back then as my primary sharpening media.

Sharpening stones have come a very long way across the board, MUCH better now than they used to be.

[JD Spydo]

Larrin I am so glad you brought up the old 440V aka S60V that Spyderco used in some of their first Golden, Co made models.

I actually liked the steel better than it's successor S30V>> most people are the opposite of me on that opinion but I've looked at it differently. I did discover that S60V aka 440V is probably about my favorite blade steel for serrated edges. I never ever chipped a scallop or a spike on any Spyderco serration pattern using S60V.

It also seems to perform and hold up better in extreme weather and harsh environments better than S30V IMO.

I'm sure there will be a few that vehemently disagree with me but those are my results. S60V in Spyderedged blades was near excellent and held up to brutal cutting jobs when I used it.

[Ankerson]

Larrin I am so glad you brought up the old 440V aka S60V that Spyderco used in some of their first Golden, Co made models.

I actually liked the steel better than it's successor S30V>> most people are the opposite of me on that opinion but I've looked at it differently. I did discover that S60V aka 440V is probably about my favorite blade steel for serrated edges. I never ever chipped a scallop or a spike on any Spyderco serration pattern using S60V.

It also seems to perform and hold up better in extreme weather and harsh environments better than S30V IMO.

I'm sure there will be a few that vehemently disagree with me but those are my results. S60V in Spyderedged blades was near excellent and held up to brutal cutting jobs when I used it.

For me it was the serrated blades... I didn't have much use for them back then other than in the kitchen so I just didn't buy them.

[JD Spydo]

Larrin I am so glad you brought up the old 440V aka S60V that Spyderco used in some of their first Golden, Co made models.

I actually liked the steel better than it's successor S30V>> most people are the opposite of me on that opinion but I've looked at it differently. I did discover that S60V aka 440V is probably about my favorite blade steel for serrated edges. I never ever chipped a scallop or a spike on any Spyderco serration pattern using S60V.

It also seems to perform and hold up better in extreme weather and harsh environments better than S30V IMO.

I'm sure there will be a few that vehemently disagree with me but those are my results. S60V in Spyderedged blades was near excellent and held up to brutal cutting jobs when I used it.

For me it was the serrated blades... I didn't have much use for them back then other than in the kitchen so I just didn't buy them.

Yeah I seem to agree with you because I first noticed S60V being good in serrated blades >> especially that first run C-36 Military in SE. That was one of the better SE blades that the GOLDEN, CO plant ever put out IMO.

Now in plain edge it's far from being the worst but with all the newer supersteels that we have been blessed with it wouldn't be one of my top 5 selections>> but it's not junk either. The toughness properties of that steel are incredible IMO. Oh and did I mention that 440V (S60V) is truly a "Monster" to sharpen :eek:

It was probably about 10 years ago I got to chat with one of the Crucible representatives at the BLADE Show and he told me that the company marketed S60V mainly as a "tool & die" steel.

Again I'm very glad that Larrin brought this up for discussion.

[Cambertree]

Thanks Larrin, I particularly enjoyed this article. :)

[Phil Wilson]

Hi Larrin, et all Another reason CPM S60 sort of faded out was the introduction of CPM S90V which was touted as an upgrade to S60V. S90V had everything S60V did plus after some fine tuning had better heat treat response. Yes , more resistance to finish but also somewhat better edge holding as noted in your article. Then CPM S30V came along and there was a general movement to it since it had good heat treat response and was a little easier on the hands during the finish operation. I will go back and try some 60V if even from a nostalgia point of view. thanks for taking us back a few years in our craft. Phil

[Larrin]

Thanks Larrin, I particularly enjoyed this article. :)

Awesome!

[Larrin]

Hi Larrin, et all Another reason CPM S60 sort of faded out was the introduction of CPM S90V which was touted as an upgrade to S60V. S90V had everything S60V did plus after some fine tuning had better heat treat response. Yes , more resistance to finish but also somewhat better edge holding as noted in your article. Then CPM S30V came along and there was a general movement to it since it had good heat treat response and was a little easier on the hands during the finish operation. I will go back and try some 60V if even from a nostalgia point of view. thanks for taking us back a few years in our craft. Phil

Certainly to Crucible S90V was seen as an across the board upgrade though it has never really taken off in knives either. So I agree that S30V was the one that made the big impact with being easier to grind for the manufacturers.

[JD Spydo]

A few years back Spyderco did some in house tests as to which of their blade steels was the best in serrated/Spyderedged blades. I was literally shocked when I heard that they claimed H-1 was the best in SE :eek: .

But with the great luck I've had with 440V aka S60V with serrated blades makes me wonder if they ever tested 440V in those tests? Because I've used a lot of Spyderco's serrated blades over the years and three of my ultimate favorites in SE are 440V, ATS-55 and AUS-8>> and I do like H-1 in SE as well.

But I would love to know if there have ever been any controlled tests for serrated blades specifically and how 440V ranked in those tests ( that is if they ever tested it?). I would have no problem with Spyderco bringing it back in SE blades>> actually I would welcome it.

[Bill1170]

I wonder if the low hardness Spyderco had to run S60V at has anything to do with it performing better in serrations per JD Spydo? Maybe it underwent a beneficial cold-work response similar to what H-1 does when serrations are ground into it? I’ve never had a blade in S60V, so all my information is strictly hearsay.

(Edited to add:)
I just read the article. Looks like toughness is decent for a wear-resistant stainless cutlery steel, which seems to be an essential factor for success in serrated edges. Good article.

[Joshua J.]

I've still got an old Kershaw Boa sitting around somewhere.
That was one of the first knives I ever re-ground right to flat with the primary bevel.
Worst part was after all that work the blade was still only hardened to 56RC, and with an edge profile of less than 5-6 degrees inclusive I could visibly flex the blade with my fingernail about 1/16" up from the edge, and it started rolling badly just cutting hair.
The "Micro Bevel" needed to stabilize the edge probably took 1/32" off the with of the blade.

It was all kind of futile though.
I know ZDP-189 is "better", but after taking a ZDP-Caly3 to similar angles the response wasn't dramatically different.

[Ankerson]

Hi Larrin, et all Another reason CPM S60 sort of faded out was the introduction of CPM S90V which was touted as an upgrade to S60V. S90V had everything S60V did plus after some fine tuning had better heat treat response. Yes , more resistance to finish but also somewhat better edge holding as noted in your article. Then CPM S30V came along and there was a general movement to it since it had good heat treat response and was a little easier on the hands during the finish operation. I will go back and try some 60V if even from a nostalgia point of view. thanks for taking us back a few years in our craft. Phil

Certainly to Crucible S90V was seen as an across the board upgrade though it has never really taken off in knives either. So I agree that S30V was the one that made the big impact with being easier to grind for the manufacturers.

Yeah, you are correct...

But not before they tried a lot of other steels before S30V became the standard.. Some of those are still used today, not many of them though..

Today we have so many options I think it can be confusing for a lot of people, a lot of them are VERY close in performance.

It's not really a bad thing though, choices are good.

[Larrin]

We will get something with true differentiation in performance eventually, I hope.