Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

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Wartstein
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Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jul 22, 2020 6:24 am

People sometimes state here, that they would use their thicker bladestock Spydies (let´s say 3.7mm, like Millie, PM2, Para 3..) specifically for "hard use" tasks, cause thinner blades might not be up to this.

Tbh, I just can´t fully understand this, judging from my personal experience (which is limited of course!)

1.) In MY "hard use" the 3mm of the Endura (even in ffg) never, ever felt to "weak" or flexy or even as if the blade could break (at least in the steels I tried, might be different with very "brittle" steels)

2.) When it comes to knives like in the "Military family":
Here the thicker bladestock is paired with pretty fine tips. Not saying that this is a bad thing generally (I do like the fine tips functionwise!), but just concerning "hard use": IF any part of the blade is somewhat likely to break or snap in my kind of "hard use" it would be solely the very TIP. This from either "prying motions" or having to work hard and fast and hitting metal, concrete or whatever
So imho even if thicker stock (3.7) would really be needed for "hard use" (and it is not in my experience), in knives like Millie or Para 3 one could not make real use of it,just cause the very tip would be too "weak".

3.) If you ask me:
- 3mm (or thinner) stock is one aspect (of several) that enhances (slicing-) performance compared to thicker stock, but does not really limit "hard use" with a folder (not talking fixed blades!)
- It is not too "weak" for hard use: Even if one would pry with a folder, probably the very tip or the pivot area would break before the blade did somewhere behind the tip, regardless if 3.00 or 3.7 mm
- What imho really has to be considered in "hard use", regardless if in 3mm, 3.7mm, or thicker stock (in a FOLDER!):
a) How strong is the tip?
b) How steep or robust is the very edgeangle/apex (concerning possible chipping and rolling)
c) What steel is the blade made of?

So, just in my humble opinion and personal experience: Thicker, 3.7mm and more stock might have some advantages (for example it is more comfortable to put a finger on the spine), but is not needed for folder-hard use... but other factors determine if a folder-blade holds up to this or not.
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Cycletroll » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:06 am

I'm with you Warstein! I routinely carry a saber ground VG10 Endura on duty as a firefighter specifically for its stout tip. Used to carry a Mille but was always concerned about tip strength.
Enduras have plenty of blade stock thickness for all but the most abusive twisting/prying forces. I just wish they were ground thinner behind the edge!

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:10 am

The Shaman is the king fellas! Robust blade AND tip.
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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Spydergirl88 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:19 am

Just remember: people lie and people pry

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Pancake » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:34 am

What is hard use? In my eyes, hard use is a extended use. Like cutting things for half an hour, or similar.
Hard use is not using a knife like a prybar, screwdriver or hammer, this is just a mis-use. No matter how thick your blade is, or how thick the blade tip is, when you are mis-using a knife, the stress AVE to go somewhere, like a pivot, lock bar cutout, lock....and if you repeat it number of times, something will fail.

Feel free to disagree.

If you want to cut with a knife, your best bet is thin stock (3mm max) with thin grind. This blade will excel in cutting, and will suffer in prying and so on.
And yes, you can make a thick blade cut good with thin grind. But, if you qould have two blades, same height, same grind, same thickness behind the edge, but one is 2,5 mm and other is 4 mm, the thinner will cut better.

Unpopular opinion: I think that 3 mm thick blade with 0,5 mm behind the edge will cut better than 4 mm thick blade with 0.25 behind the edge things like cardboard, then the whole height of your blade have to go through the material. On shallow cuts, it could be different....
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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Mushroom » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:35 am

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:19 am
Just remember: people lie and people pry
This!!!

In a perfect world, slicing would be the only thing people use their knife for and the desire for a thicker blade stock would be pure novelty. (If it isn't already)

I think you'd be surprised by how some people actually use their pocket knife. I'll have to take pictures of a Manix 2 XL that I gifted to my brother in law a while back. He tried battoning through sheet metal and it went exactly how you're imagining... :rolleyes:
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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Spydergirl88 » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:37 am

Mushroom wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:35 am
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:19 am
Just remember: people lie and people pry
This!!!

In a perfect world, slicing would be the only thing people use their knife for and the desire for a thicker blade stock would be pure novelty. (If it isn't already)

I think you'd be surprised by how some people actually use their pocket knife. I'll have to take pictures of a Manix 2 XL that I gifted to my brother in law a while back. He tried battoning through sheet metal and it went exactly how you're imagining... :rolleyes:
That's one way to install a sky light... Lol

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:50 am

Hahaha, I guess that's because we all know how expensive these knives are, that we wouldn't dare try something THAT crazy!

Though, David has done some wild things with that Caribbean lately!
19 :spyder:'s in 11 different steels
2 - ZT's - 0460 and 0470
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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:01 am

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:19 am
Just remember: people lie and people pry
Mushroom wrote:
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:19 am
Just remember: people lie and people pry
This!!!

In a perfect world, slicing would be the only thing people use their knife for and the desire for a thicker blade stock would be pure novelty. (If it isn't already)

I think you'd be surprised by how some people actually use their pocket knife. I'll have to take pictures of a Manix 2 XL that I gifted to my brother in law a while back. He tried battoning through sheet metal and it went exactly how you're imagining... :rolleyes:
Guess I did not make my point in my original post, let´s try again: ;)

1.) If one uses a pocket knife for prying, in most cases the tip will be involved. So even IF 3.7mm stock would be significantly better in "prying with pocket knives" than 3.00 mm stock, the FINE TIP of for example the Military family knives still would snap and one could not make real use of the possible advantages of thicker stock

2.)In my experience though 3.00 mm is thick enough anyway for any "prying" one could (foolishly or not) do with a pocket knife... As said, on many 3.7 mm folders (Millie, PM2, Para 3..) the tip would snap of long before any other part of the blade or probably even the pivot area would get damaged before the whole blade breaks in two, regardless if 3.00 or "thicker" 3.7mm...
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby James Y » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:05 am

Yeah, people pry with knife blades all the time. Historically, it was extremely common to see so-called “traditional“ pocketknives with one or more of the blades having broken tips from prying. On the old TV show Man vs Food, I saw the host, Adam Richman, use what appeared to be a Spyderco Paramilitary (PM1) to pry clams open. When it would have been so easy to carry a basic SAK with a large screwdriver/bottle opener blade and pry with that.

Obviously, that’s why Spyderco reinforced the tips on the Delica 4/Endura 4. The D3/E3 and earlier versions all had fine tips, which I’m sure people were snapping off all the time.

Even a knife with a stouter tip than the Military/PM2/PM3/etc., can break or chip, if it has a sharp edge. I’ve seen at least one Emerson CQC7 with the tip broken off, and that’s a thick blade/tip.

Jim
Last edited by James Y on Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:09 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby spyderg » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:06 am

I’ll give a couple examples of what I consider hard use and the knives I used.
I used my GEC 15 sheeps foot to cut through a lot of thick, (3/4”) recycled tire rubber mats. They even have some small bits of metal in them still. The thin blade worked quite well but a larger handle would have been nice for the prolonged cutting. The blade needed a good sharpening after but that’s all.
I borderline abused my Large Insingo Sebenza when I needed to cut a number of pieces of metal downspout one day and couldn’t find my tin snips. Even with it’s rather thinly ground blade, it did quite admirably. Couple small chips and pretty dull after. Nothing that a good sharpening didn’t fix.
I feel that if I had gone back for a “hard use” knife such as my ZT 550, I would have struggled doing these tasks with the thicker stock and grind. Now , if I need to jam a folding knife into the side of a tree and use as a step, ZT 550 it is, lol! (Seriously it’s pretty crazy what the knife can be put through, watched a video of it, I think the youtubers name is Vininull or something like that, look it up).
If you're wielding the sharpest tool in the shed, who's going to say that you aren't...?

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Albatross » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:08 am

Unfortunately, "hard use" has no standardized definition, making it 100% subjective.

For some, I believe it's a percieved benefit, more than a demonstrable benefit. Having said that, there are people who snap tips or entire blades on thinner knives, and sometimes it can't be avoided. First responders often pick knives with thicker blades/tips that can handle being put into roles outside the tool's intended purpose, because adrenaline and unpredictability can destroy a knife. Rick Hinderer has been using over-travel stops on his lock bars, to eliminate the possibility of over-extending the lock bar during times of high stress. That's the same logic behind the thick blades he sells. User-proof designs.

I've used knives to pry when nothing else was available, so I see the benefit in having thicker blade stock. I've also used knives to "drill" holes into wood, and I wouldn't want to do that with thin stock.

Differentiating between true need and good marketing, as an outsider, is not so easy.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:09 am

Pancake wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:34 am
What is hard use? In my eyes, hard use is a extended use. Like cutting things for half an hour, or similar.
Hard use is not using a knife like a prybar, screwdriver or hammer, this is just a mis-use. No matter how thick your blade is, or how thick the blade tip is, when you are mis-using a knife, the stress AVE to go somewhere, like a pivot, lock bar cutout, lock....and if you repeat it number of times, something will fail.

Feel free to disagree.

If you want to cut with a knife, your best bet is thin stock (3mm max) with thin grind. This blade will excel in cutting, and will suffer in prying and so on.
And yes, you can make a thick blade cut good with thin grind. But, if you qould have two blades, same height, same grind, same thickness behind the edge, but one is 2,5 mm and other is 4 mm, the thinner will cut better.

Unpopular opinion: I think that 3 mm thick blade with 0,5 mm behind the edge will cut better than 4 mm thick blade with 0.25 behind the edge things like cardboard, then the whole height of your blade have to go through the material. On shallow cuts, it could be different....

Great question, and actually aligns with my point: In what on earth kind of FOLDER hard use one would profit from 3.7mm stock as compared to 3.00 mm stock?!?! Can´t imagine any real life "hard" task where that would matter strengthwise at least in my experience.
What DOES matter is pure tip strength and how thin or robust the grind is.

When I think of "hard use":
It is having to work REALLY fast under timestress and without time to be a bit carefull with the knife.
Plus having to cut and tear apart stuff, twisting the knife and first and foremost no chance to avoid hitting metal or concrete or whatever, especially with the very tip
When does that occur?:
- In my life only when I help in unpacking and moving out of the way supplies a helicopter brings: Lot of metal barrels and the like to unwrap and real time-stress, since the since the stuff has to be moved out of the way before the chopper returns with the next load.
- Best knife in my collection for that?: Well... The 2.5 mm stock sabre grind comboedge Delica with it´s very robust tip... :rolleyes:
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Albatross » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:11 am

3+ mm may be enough for some, but not all.
tap78 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:40 pm
Image
Image
source: google images
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:14 am

Albatross wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:11 am
3+ mm may be enough for some, but not all.
tap78 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:40 pm
:eek:

...and the Millie even HAS the "thicker" 3.7mm stock...
You don´t happen to know the story behind this?
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Red » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:14 am

Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:19 am
Just remember: people lie and people pry
Yep, I am guilty of prying everyday with a Salt 2 PE and it works great. I have to pry old hoses off of pvc and brass fittings in the bilges of boats eaten up with saltwater corrosion everywhere and it does a great job, so nice to not have to run in and out of the customers boats every-time I need to “pry” or manipulate something along with cutting or slicing it. I realize this is not the intended use of the knife but it just speaks to the quality of the knife. If the tip ever did break, its on me completely. No worries. Would absolutely buy another one.
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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Albatross » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:16 am

Wartstein wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:14 am
Albatross wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:11 am
3+ mm may be enough for some, but not all.
tap78 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:40 pm
:eek:

...and the Millie even HAS the "thicker" 3.7mm stock...
You don´t happen to know the story behind this?
If you click the arrow on the quoted post, it will bring you to a thread on this forum about snapped blades. Some of the images were found on Google.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:17 am

Albatross wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:16 am
Wartstein wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:14 am
Albatross wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:11 am
3+ mm may be enough for some, but not all.
tap78 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:40 pm
:eek:

...and the Millie even HAS the "thicker" 3.7mm stock...
You don´t happen to know the story behind this?
If you click the arrow on the quoted post, it will bring you to a thread on this forum about snapped blades. Some of the images were found on Google.
Thanks!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:19 am

Red wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:14 am
Spydergirl88 wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 7:19 am
Just remember: people lie and people pry
Yep, I am guilty of prying everyday with a Salt 2 PE and it works great. I have to pry old hoses off of pvc and brass fittings in the bilges of boats eaten up with saltwater corrosion everywhere and it does a great job, so nice to not have to run in and out of the customers boats every-time I need to “pry” or manipulate something along with cutting or slicing it. I realize this is not the intended use of the knife but it just speaks to the quality of the knife. If the tip ever did break, its on me completely. No worries. Would absolutely buy another one.

This speaks for:

1.) The possible strength of thin stock (2.5mm in the Salt! Though in sabre grind)
2.) The toughness of H1
3.) The strength of LINERLESS FRN

:)
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Thicker "harduse" bladestocks / fine tips.. and more - I don´t fully get it

Postby Wartstein » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:30 am

Albatross wrote:
Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:11 am
3+ mm may be enough for some, but not all.
tap78 wrote:
Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:40 pm
...
Image
source: google images

Could not find the story behind that pics in the thread... hard to imagine for methat a blade really breaks like that (unless it is rather "brittle" steel) in just remotely "knife-related" use?!

Where I absolutely COULD see such a result is from a single, heavy impact: Like lie down the blade on a hard surface and hit it with a sledge hammer on the flat... ?!
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40


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