C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up

[p_atrick]

So if Spyderco could either do a normal FFG, or the more unusual but really badass 'Straight Razor/ Super Hollow Grind' I think that would make for an exceptional update.

Sal mentioned something about a "performance" Delica (I think that is the name) that will come in a high hollow grind. Not the same model, but it is good to know that Spyderco is considering this type of grind.

[JD Spydo]

I'd be 100% in favor of that ^^^

I've never used Tom Krein's grinding service but I've talked to a few guys who have and most of them really liked it. However the hollow grind on the C-60 Ayoob model doesn't bother me in the least. It's one design I personally think that works really well in hollow grind. For sure Tom Krein has a sterling reputation for his work and it's a great option for people who like a full flat grind to that degree.

I'm so glad that Mark Greenman finally showed up. He is truly an ambassador for the C-60 Ayoob model. I've always learned a lot from his posts in the past.

[mark greenman]

So if Spyderco could either do a normal FFG, or the more unusual but really badass 'Straight Razor/ Super Hollow Grind' I think that would make for an exceptional update.

Sal mentioned something about a "performance" Delica (I think that is the name) that will come in a high hollow grind. Not the same model, but it is good to know that Spyderco is considering this type of grind.

That would be great.

Super steels and FFG have certainly advanced cutting performance considerably.

But I think the real frontier for maximum cutting performance is with 'Super Grinds' as done by Tom Krein and other makers, where the metal behind the edge is as thin as possible. I think the average was around .007-.010" behind the edge, and the metal behind that also quite thin.

These grinds are not really suitable for general issue knives for normal people. But for the AFI / Knife Nerd crowd who knows how to take care of knives and is interested in maximum cutting performance, they really are pretty awesome. Real lightsabers through thick cardboard.

[mark greenman]

Some more Ayoob pics:



I lack the photography skills to capture just how thin the metal is behind the edge for the Krein regrinds.

But here is the spine of the 'Super Hollow' on the left, vs the regular Hollow on the factory Ayoob. The SH regrind keeps almost all of the spine strength of the regular hollow, while radically boosting cutting performance.

Super Hollow Regrind left vs factory hollow right:



Compared to the Tom Krein 'Super Full Flat' grind, the Super Hollow is much more robust, but has essentially identical cutting performance.

SH left, SFFG right:


I'm not sure whether these grinds are possible in a factory knife, but any improvement in the factory Ayoob grind (more hollow or a normal FFG) would be a great upgrade.

That said, I feel profoundly lucky for us to simply be seeing another Sprint of this model, and I'm giddy at the prospect of a G10 Ayoob Serrated.

[JD Spydo]

That said, I feel profoundly lucky for us to simply be seeing another Sprint of this model, and I'm giddy at the prospect of a G10 Ayoob Serrated.

When they did the first Sprint Run of the C-60 Ayoob in 2011 I was just beside myself that they didn't offer that one in full Spyderedge. Because the C-60 is one of the better known SE classic models. I would dare to say that the C-60 model has equal love in both edge types.

But thankfully we've had a resurgence of popularity of fully serrated models. And the Ayoob in SE is by far one of Spyderco's very best models with teeth.

[Evil D]

I don't think they'd have any problem making this knife in a thin FFG, they did with the Nilakka and the blade height is very similar and they wouldn't have to go as thin at the edge as the Nilakka (though that would be VERY cool if they did). I'm fine with a hollow grind, I'm more concerned with how the serrations are ground.

[JD Spydo]

I don't think they'd have any problem making this knife in a thin FFG, they did with the Nilakka and the blade height is very similar and they wouldn't have to go as thin at the edge as the Nilakka (though that would be VERY cool if they did). I'm fine with a hollow grind, I'm more concerned with how the serrations are ground.

This is truly interesting from a couple of standpoints. First off it now makes me wonder why Mr. Ayoob elected to make the blade a full "hollow grind" to begin with. With that particular model being so functional from almost every aspect I'm beginning to think that Mr. Ayoob must have had a definite reason for making it that way.

Second I do think there is a case to be made that the full SE version would maybe do better in a full flat grind as you have pointed out on a couple of other occasions. The knife is so functional and ergonomic that I find it strange that this subject has never come up previously. But I do think he must have had a definite reason for using the hollow grind?

[Evil D]

I don't think they'd have any problem making this knife in a thin FFG, they did with the Nilakka and the blade height is very similar and they wouldn't have to go as thin at the edge as the Nilakka (though that would be VERY cool if they did). I'm fine with a hollow grind, I'm more concerned with how the serrations are ground.

This is truly interesting from a couple of standpoints. First off it now makes me wonder why Mr. Ayoob elected to make the blade a full "hollow grind" to begin with. With that particular model being so functional from almost every aspect I'm beginning to think that Mr. Ayoob must have had a definite reason for making it that way.

Second I do think there is a case to be made that the full SE version would maybe do better in a full flat grind as you have pointed out on a couple of other occasions. The knife is so functional and ergonomic that I find it strange that this subject has never come up previously. But I do think he must have had a definite reason for using the hollow grind?

Either grind can be made to slice and perform well, or be made to cut like a brick. I think blades as short in height like this are typically made in hollow grinds. Michael Janich just mentioned in a recent post about the Yojimbo 2 that they didn't have the ability to do full flat grinds in house until fairly recently and that they had to outsource those kinds of grinds, so I'd say that's your answer right there...the original got a hollow grind because that's what Spyderco could do at the time. Maybe he meant that as what the Golden factory are capable of and not Seki? A lot of times with short blades if you do them in FFG you end up with such a quick transition in the blade grind that they're like a door stop and are thick behind the edge unless you grind them very thin like the Nilakka.

[JD Spydo]

I see what you're saying and I really can't object to it. However with the original design of the C-60 Ayoob I really don't think a full flat grind or a hollow grind either one would be a problem. As much as I've used mine in the past 3 weeks I can't see anytime a full flat grind would have been advantageous over the present hollow grind. No I didn't see anytime that it inhibited it's overall performance.

On the other hand I'm never opposed to improving even on the best of designs. But I would like to see any potential improvements either being done my Massad Ayoob himself or at least have his blessings.

[JD Spydo]

Do we know what steel & handle material/color the sprint is supposed to use? I'm not up to searching 49 pages of posts looking for it...

Personally I would like to see it continue to be done with an American blade steel like Crucible or Carpenter. I also prefer it to have a G-10 handle although I wouldn't complain if they did another one in Carbon Fiber.

If they do a full SE version my first pick would be CTS-XHP>> because I know it's a good steel for serrated edges. Actually if they had some old 440V bar stock left over it wouldn't bother me if they would use that for the serrated version.

[Evil D]

I've got a feeling it'll be Spy27 and blue G10. The steel needs to be something with a special feeling to it especially if they go with G10, because the steel will somewhat offset/justify the cost since you know it'll be steep getting G10 from Japan.

Then again they may just throw us a fastball and do it in K390 since Seki is churning out a lot of K390 lately.

[JD Spydo]

I've got a feeling it'll be Spy27 and blue G10. The steel needs to be something with a special feeling to it especially if they go with G10, because the steel will somewhat offset/justify the cost since you know it'll be steep getting G10 from Japan.

Then again they may just throw us a fastball and do it in K390 since Seki is churning out a lot of K390 lately.

Either blade steel will be fine with me. Not sure how either one would fare in Spyderedge ( serrations) but there's one way to find out.

One suggestion made last fall I believe it was when they suggested a maroon or burgundy colored handle. I always loved my Burgundy ZDP-189 Caly Jr.>> they also had a Burgundy Jess Horn model with ZDP-189 as well. I tend to like that color. But to get the Ayoob model to come to fruition as fast as possible the handle color won't be a problem for me.

I've never got to try HAP 40 in SE and that makes me wonder if that might be a possibility? All of my VG-10 blades in full Spyderedge have all served me well.

[PyriteParachute]

Seconded on the Ulize. I recently made paper mockups of a lot of Spyderco, and that one impressed me with its comfort in both Saber and pinch grip.

As for the Ayoob scales, there are a lot of CF sprints already, maybe Micarta? Or dark red or purple g-10? Or a darker wood?

[JRinFL]

Hollow grind cuts flesh very effectively and the thicker spine lends more strength while thrusting. This is a SD knife, remember.

[Evil D]

I've got a feeling it'll be Spy27 and blue G10. The steel needs to be something with a special feeling to it especially if they go with G10, because the steel will somewhat offset/justify the cost since you know it'll be steep getting G10 from Japan.

Then again they may just throw us a fastball and do it in K390 since Seki is churning out a lot of K390 lately.

Either blade steel will be fine with me. Not sure how either one would fare in Spyderedge ( serrations) but there's one way to find out.

One suggestion made last fall I believe it was when they suggested a maroon or burgundy colored handle. I always loved my Burgundy ZDP-189 Caly Jr.>> they also had a Burgundy Jess Horn model with ZDP-189 as well. I tend to like that color. But to get the Ayoob model to come to fruition as fast as possible the handle color won't be a problem for me.

I've never got to try HAP 40 in SE and that makes me wonder if that might be a possibility? All of my VG-10 blades in full Spyderedge have all served me well.

I don't think a non stainless will happen because it's a self defense knife, despite the fact that 99.9% of them will never be used as such. I get it though.

Honestly it can be VG10 and plain old black G10 and I'm happy, I just want the chance to own one without paying stupid secondary market prices. I highly doubt this will be the case though.

[JD Spydo]

Hollow grind cuts flesh very effectively and the thicker spine lends more strength while thrusting. This is a SD knife, remember.

Oh Absolutely correct!! You are spot on!! The C-60 Massad Ayoob model is a design made for self defense. No argument there at all. But don't overlook the fact that the C-60 also makes for a great all around "Every Day Carry" (EDC) folder as well.

Check out the old threads and check out Doc Snubnose and his test he did with his serrated C-60. He proves that the C-60 in full SE is among the best of all of Spyderco's SE folders for a wide variety of uses. The C-60 doesn't stop at being ideal for SD>> no it goes much further than that.

The ergos on that design are among the best for about anything you would want to use it for. I've been EDCing one of my G-10 Sprint Run C-60 models for a little over a month now and I no longer want to return to my M390 Military which had been my primary EDC for over 4 years. It took one helluva folder for me to semi-retire my M390 Millie. I've found the C-60 to be an ultimate EDC folder in both edge types.

[JD Spydo]

I've got a feeling it'll be Spy27 and blue G10. The steel needs to be something with a special feeling to it especially if they go with G10, because the steel will somewhat offset/justify the cost since you know it'll be steep getting G10 from Japan.

Then again they may just throw us a fastball and do it in K390 since Seki is churning out a lot of K390 lately.

Either blade steel will be fine with me. Not sure how either one would fare in Spyderedge ( serrations) but there's one way to find out.

One suggestion made last fall I believe it was when they suggested a maroon or burgundy colored handle. I always loved my Burgundy ZDP-189 Caly Jr.>> they also had a Burgundy Jess Horn model with ZDP-189 as well. I tend to like that color. But to get the Ayoob model to come to fruition as fast as possible the handle color won't be a problem for me.

I've never got to try HAP 40 in SE and that makes me wonder if that might be a possibility? All of my VG-10 blades in full Spyderedge have all served me well.

I don't think a non stainless will happen because it's a self defense knife, despite the fact that 99.9% of them will never be used as such. I get it though.

Honestly it can be VG10 and plain old black G10 and I'm happy, I just want the chance to own one without paying stupid secondary market prices. I highly doubt this will be the case though.

I agree with David about 95% in what he just said about the C-60. The design is so good on the C-60 that a VG-10 blade is not even much of a factor. I've been EDCing my G-10 Sprint Run C-60 for a little over a month now and the VG-10 blade hasn't held me back at all.

I also agree with David that a "non-stainless" blade would be a step backwards. With all the super premium stainless blade steels out there I see no reason at all to consider a non-stainless blade. Unless it might be a super premium tool steel that doesn't quite meet the definition of a true "stainless steel". Otherwise I don't see any advantages to a non-stainless blade.

And I'm still firm on either G-10 or CF for a handle on the upcoming Sprint Run of the C-60. G-10 works so well with this model that I don't even see what at all could be gained with any other handle material. When they did the 2011 G-10 Sprint it really made the C-60 much better than the original which wasn't really bad at all. But the G-10 handle improved the grip factor so much that I would never consider going backward. The almite/aluminum handle on the original, first run of the C-60 was somewhat slick when it was wet. But the G-10 handle on the 2011 Sprint Run is literally perfect for a wide range of uses and in just about any harsh environment as well.

[mark greenman]

I hope its a G10 or Micarta handle as well; major upgrade vs the aluminum handle of the original (I ran my aluminum coated in stairwell traction tape to make up for the lack of grip.)

I'd like to see it in a sensible, dark color. Black, Grey, Dark Navy/Denim, etc. It is after all an extremely menacing looking tactical knife; putting a festive handle color on it would be a bit weird, while doing nothing to make it more socially friendly to pull out at the office.

Personally, Dark G10 + VG10 + a more aggressive geometry (FFG or deeper hollow) would be sweet.

But of course, it could be Aus8 with the same blade grind and pink aluminum handles, and I'd still be snagging 2. :spyder:

[JD Spydo]

Well Mark I can pretty much agree with most everything that you put forth. However there is one issue I will stand firm on and I sadly must disagree with you>> but respectfully so. It would not be right if they didn't at least improve on the blade steel since it's been close to 10 years since the last Sprint Run of the C-60. No I most definitely want to see Spyderco go with a newer/better blade steel. Everything else that they did in the 2011 Sprint Run is fine by me for this next Sprint Run. But I do want to see them go with something beside VG-10.

The SPY27 or K390 or HAP 40 or any number of good Japan made blade steels would be great and actually proper for a new unit. But Mark if you've got any additional suggestions in that area I do respect your input. You are one of the old school fans of the C-60 and you go back almost as far as I do . But personally I'm going to stand firm on the blade steel improvement. Everything else is negotiable.
JD :spyder: O

[twinboysdad]

Great to see Mark Greenman here! I consider his article on the Ayoob all those years ago what put it on my radar. I also bought my LBHB on Mark’s recommendation. As far as color, any of the Kahr Delica colors or even the green the original Lil Temp came in?