C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up

[Hopsbreath]

Back from the spa treatment, it’s a little leaner and ready to mingle. Time to get put to use! Hollow grind courtesy of John with BGM.

What motivated you to get a hollow regrind?

This sprint is a bit thick. I like the thinness behind the edge a hollow grind offers. The edge on the Ayoob and a Buck 110 aren’t that different from each other and it’s a 110 I learned to sharpen as a kid. Excited for long term use in Cruwear!

[wrdwrght]

Back from the spa treatment, it’s a little leaner and ready to mingle. Time to get put to use! Hollow grind courtesy of John with BGM.

What motivated you to get a hollow regrind?

This sprint is a bit thick. I like the thinness behind the edge a hollow grind offers. The edge on the Ayoob and a Buck 110 aren’t that different from each other and it’s a 110 I learned to sharpen as a kid. Excited for long term use in Cruwear!

So I imagined.

Absent a hollow-grind, this sprint is something else, at least in PE, and I will remain uncertain what it is until I can put the edge on it I want. That will take some learning.

[wrdwrght]

A nice write up on the Ayoob and its SD origins:

http://knifesearch.blogspot.com/2022/08 ... ayoob.html

Where does Mas say, as does the cited article, that his design was meant “…to fit between the ribs and lacerate the heart. The design locked the blade open at an angle of less than 180 degrees. This allows you to utilize the knife with the wrist very close to the strong, neutral position. More on that later”?

BTW, there is no more later, at least from Mas.

His writings are more than a decade+ ago, on the forums. I had some more excerpts saved of his in my review from back in the day:

C60 Massad Ayoob- 3 year review w/ 20+ pics
viewtopic.php?t=45380

The C60 Massad Ayoob was a designed by world-renowned self-defense expert Massad Ayoob. Here is Mr. Ayoob’s explanation of the design.

“The rationale was to get the blade directly in line with the radius bone of the forearm when the average human wrist was in the "locked" position, which puts the middle knuckle of the hand directly in line with the axis of the forearm.

This is what gives the C60 its superior stabbing accuracy that posters in this thread have mentioned, and it also gives tremendously more penetration, because it aligns the skeleto-muscular support structure of the arm with the point (number one), and therefore with anyone who knows how to put his weight behind a punch, gets the entire body's force going directly behind the point (number two).

As other posters have also noted, the handle-to-blade angle puts much more force behind a slash as well as a stab. Instead of the blade "skimming" over the target as it hits hard resistance such as bone, the 90 degree angle of the blade when held in reverse grip (and KEPT there by a handle shape that allows the thumb to lock it at that angle) the C60 is more likely to shear directly through whatever resistance it encounters. Because of the design features, something very similar happens with a slash from the conventional saber or pekal grasp.

As to the tip-down carry: I'm one of those early Spyderco fans whom Sal calls "Clipiteers," [:-)] who started their Spyderco experience with the original Police model, learned to open it with a pinch-snap, and discovered we could win bets beating guys with bali-songs and even "automatic knives" in opening speed. The pinch snap uses the gross motor movement of the closed hand instead of the more fine-motor skill of using the thumb to open the blade via the original design intent of the "Spyder-hole."

Not a lot of actual Mas here on SD, but a lot of extrapolation on the why of the grip he does describe, no?

[JD Spydo]

I really don’t want to give Spyderco hard time for bringing us this super cool model - I really appreciate they did it. But putting out SE knives with a grind larger than 20 degrees is really something that I have a hard time to get excited about.

I don't mean to be a "Fly In The Ointment" so to speak disagreeing with you but my full SE unit is just performing really nicely. But in all fairness I'm becoming more "function" driven anymore these days.

And it seems like this new C-60 Ayoob Sprint Run is selling at a pretty fast pace in both edge types. As long as my full SE unit performs nicely I'm not going to let a different design stop me.. Now I can't decide which edge type I want to carry. I'm just amazed at how fast this new Sprint Run is disappearing off the shelves. Especially in this currently troubled economy.

[Matus]

I really don’t want to give Spyderco hard time for bringing us this super cool model - I really appreciate they did it. But putting out SE knives with a grind larger than 20 degrees is really something that I have a hard time to get excited about.

I don't mean to be a "Fly In The Ointment" so to speak disagreeing with you but my full SE unit is just performing really nicely. But in all fairness I'm becoming more "function" driven anymore these days.

We are 100% good. There appear to be a certain variation in the grinds (some thinner than others). I actually did not check the grind angle on mine, as I am not yet fully convinced I will be keeping it (the very thin handle is not the best match for my skinny hands), but I am going to give it some time.

My point about the sharpening angle on some of these being past 20 degs is that it will be a lot of work to either get this re-sharpened to (sub) 20 degs, or impractical to sharpen on sharpmaker (and accept decreased edge holding in the process as that has a strong dependency on the sharpening angle).

[mark greenman]

A nice write up on the Ayoob and its SD origins:

http://knifesearch.blogspot.com/2022/08 ... ayoob.html

Where does Mas say, as does the cited article, that his design was meant “…to fit between the ribs and lacerate the heart. The design locked the blade open at an angle of less than 180 degrees. This allows you to utilize the knife with the wrist very close to the strong, neutral position. More on that later”?

BTW, there is no more later, at least from Mas.

His writings are more than a decade+ ago, on the forums. I had some more excerpts saved of his in my review from back in the day:

C60 Massad Ayoob- 3 year review w/ 20+ pics
viewtopic.php?t=45380

The C60 Massad Ayoob was a designed by world-renowned self-defense expert Massad Ayoob. Here is Mr. Ayoob’s explanation of the design.

“The rationale was to get the blade directly in line with the radius bone of the forearm when the average human wrist was in the "locked" position, which puts the middle knuckle of the hand directly in line with the axis of the forearm.

This is what gives the C60 its superior stabbing accuracy that posters in this thread have mentioned, and it also gives tremendously more penetration, because it aligns the skeleto-muscular support structure of the arm with the point (number one), and therefore with anyone who knows how to put his weight behind a punch, gets the entire body's force going directly behind the point (number two).

As other posters have also noted, the handle-to-blade angle puts much more force behind a slash as well as a stab. Instead of the blade "skimming" over the target as it hits hard resistance such as bone, the 90 degree angle of the blade when held in reverse grip (and KEPT there by a handle shape that allows the thumb to lock it at that angle) the C60 is more likely to shear directly through whatever resistance it encounters. Because of the design features, something very similar happens with a slash from the conventional saber or pekal grasp.

As to the tip-down carry: I'm one of those early Spyderco fans whom Sal calls "Clipiteers," [:-)] who started their Spyderco experience with the original Police model, learned to open it with a pinch-snap, and discovered we could win bets beating guys with bali-songs and even "automatic knives" in opening speed. The pinch snap uses the gross motor movement of the closed hand instead of the more fine-motor skill of using the thumb to open the blade via the original design intent of the "Spyder-hole."

Not a lot of actual Mas here on SD, but a lot of extrapolation on the why of the grip he does describe, no?

Its not extrapolation; everything in italics was a direct quote from Mr. Ayoob himself on the knifes design. Its frankly a lot more info then we see about most SD knife knife designs on the market (Yojimbo, Pkal, and Civilian/Matriarch being the exceptions that come to mind.)

....

The other relevant writings - also now well past a decade ago - were from this forums 'Doc Snubnose' conducting 'meat tests' of the various SD oriented folders.

The original meat test had the SE Ayoob with the second best cut depth, beat only by the PE Yojimbo 1. The most interesting part of this was the Ayoob SE beat a number of PE knives by a big margin, which almost never happens. This helped spur more interest in the Ayoob design back in the day.

I'll try and find that original test; it may have gotten lost in the pre-2008 shuffle.

[mark greenman]

More info, 2008 Dr. Snubnose:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35839

"I only have in my collection a SE Model I have never tested the PE in my meat tests...but rest assured it should do the job no problems...I did test the SE Model and though I don't have the exact results in front of me I can remember a few things about the test as it was memorable. First, It was the only SE knife made by Spyderco and other companies as well to do so well in the tests...The serration did not get caught up in the denin and it cut very deep into the meat. I was really impressed at that time with the results.

A little history and design information for you on this model if you will bear with me for a sec. Many years ago I spoke with Mas Ayoob concerning the design of this knife. He told me at the time that he designed the knife with a pistol shooting handgunner in mind. The upswept blade and handle design puts the blade in relation to the wrist in proper alignment for straight wrist thrusting, just like the alignment of the barrel to wrist in most handguns. He wanted handgunners to be able to make a transition from gun to knife without having to adjust the wrist alignment. And when I hold the Ayoob I do feel like I am holding a handgun. What does all this mean...well...when you use thrusting techniques with a blade that has an upswept curve (say a bowie for example) the wrist position must be bent downwards when thrusting or you will miss your target by inches, this can be important if you are thrusting to pin point areas, say the solar plexus or certain spaces between the rib cage for direct access to the heart. With the Ayoob you can hold your wrist normally and when you thrust you will be exactly where you aim, the wrist will be straight at full extension, which in turn will add strength to the thrust.

Try it yourself and see what I'm talking about..draw a small circle ( the size of a dime) on a piece of cardboard, now take any blade the sweeps upwards and try hitting it with the point without bending your wrist downwards....now try it with the Ayoob in the same position and you will instantly see why the design was a brilliant idea for a SD tool. BTW the Ayoob excels in the penetration department. I hope this will add to your understanding of why I like the Ayoob so much...it is probably the only serrated knife that I would feel comfortable about carrying for SD purposes......Doc :D"

......

viewtopic.php?t=47683

Here is a reprint of the thread I posted where the Ayoob SE was meat tested:

I tested 8 more knives using the same procedure as in previous tests.* At the request of IV I did some of the more traditional to see the results. Which are as follows:
#4 Horizontal Slash into Meat for Depth of cut
Bill Moran curved Blade PE 1 1/2"
Endura FRN SE 1 1/2"
Endura FRN PE 2 1/2"
Delica FRN SE 1/4"
Delica FRN PE 1 1/2"
Civilian PE 1 3/4" (length of cut was an impressive 8 1/4")
Ayoob SE 3"
Lady Bug CE 1 1/2" (scalpel hold)
"]#5 Stab and Cut TestDepth then Lenght of Cut

Moran 2 1/2" 7 1/2"
Endura SE 2 1/2" 1"
Endura PE 3" 5 1/4"
Delica SE 3/4" 1/2"
Delica PE 2" 4 1/4"
Civilian PE No Test
Mas Ayoob SE 2 3/4" 7 1/2"
Ladybug CE 1 1/4" 2"

Interesting that the Ayoob Cut deeper than any other SE knife tested. Also interesting that the Ladybug CE did so well for it's small size. Generally speaking the SE models got caught up in the Jeans and Meat rather quickly, The Civilian cut long but didn't make the depth I would have liked to witness, I think only a small portion of the tip came in contact with the meat, based on the movement of the slash and blade design...Doc
* See previous tests #1,2,& 3, for details on testing procedure and materials.
Doc :D __________________These test were conducted with round roasts wrapped in 4 layers of saran wrap (to mimic the resistance of skin) then place inside a denim pant leg.

[Lamont Sanford]

I just wanted to thank JD Spyderco and the other forum members who were involved in getting this bought back to market. I have wanted one for years. I looked and looked when I saw they were going to be a Sprint Run. No luck anywhere at typical big name companies. I learned here of Sooner State Knives, which I had never heard of. Was able to pick up two SEs before they went out of stock. My favorite Spyderco by far and I own a few. Thank you all.

[JD Spydo]

Hey MARK GREENMAN!!! thank you so much for retrieving that old testimony put forth by our good friend Doc Snubnose. His review of the original full SE Ayoob model with the "Meat Test" was very intriguing to say the least. I was hoping that Doc Snubnose would be around at this time to enjoy this newer version of the C-60. I do hope he returns soon.

Well Mr. Greenman I sure hope you end up ranking this Cruwear C-60 Ayoob as high as I've ranked it among Spyderco Sprint Runs. We all need to give Mr. Glesser a serious "Thank You" for doing such a great job on a great old GOLDEN ERA Spyderco model.

I'm just hoping that this will not be the last time we see a Sprint Run of the C-60 Ayoob. I do think it's an ideal model to test out newer/better blade steels with>> and in both edge types as well.

[Michael Janich]

Dear Lamont Sanford:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

Stay safe,

Mike

[TheGiant80]

No? People STILL aren't shutting up about the Ayoob? Must be something special..

In other news, the Lynch deep-carry clip I'm going to use for my C-60 arrived and I'll be making the swap shortly. Looking forward to finally trying this sucker out!

[troutinCO]

What clip did you go with? I wound up with a polished standard and I think it will stay on there.

[TheGiant80]

What clip did you go with? I wound up with a polished standard and I think it will stay on there.

Nice! I went with the Spyderco Long Clip from LynchNW with the Industrial Heat finish. Seems to be working so far! :)

[troutinCO]

Nice let me know how you like the long one on there after a bit.

[8LegLover]

Does anyone have an idea of the hrc they were shooting for on the Cruwear Ayoob? I just got my plain edge in the mail today and I'm excited to do some cutting

[sal]

Hi 8LegLover,

Welcome to or forum.

sal

[TheGiant80]

Nice let me know how you like the long one on there after a bit.

I can definitely do that my friend!

[wrdwrght]

I'm glad they thickened the tip. I obviously LOVE Spyderco's line of self defense knives, and carry one daily. (IMO)Thin tips are a flaw with many of them. Even my favorite, the P'kal. I know everything is a trade off, and Spyderco leans heavy into cutting being the number one priority. On a utility knife I completely agree. On a defense knife I would prioritize a strong tip/piercing ability first, cutting second. The Ayoob model seems to follow my priorities.

Do you imagine this sprint’s saber-grind (and its resulting thicker tip) is closer to what Mas originally wanted? I recall reading the first sprint got him the G10 handle he originally wanted.

couldn't say. I was never able to find much of him talking about the design. Mostly I get his reviews of firearm technique when I search.

Same here. That’s why I‘ve been asking Mark Greenman what there is. Lots of other people noting Mas’ SD chops and inferring what was in his mind, but little from Mas himself.

[Michal O]

Well, I accepted fact that I'll rather skip this one because lack of availability at local dealers in EU. That was attack from nowhere literally and 24 hours later here he is.

Chillout with other "tactical" Spydies.

[troutinCO]

Well, I accepted fact that I'll rather skip this one because lack of availability at local dealers in EU. That was attack from nowhere literally and 24 hours later here he is.

Chillout with other "tactical" Spydies.

Ha! You will be happy to have it and not missed out on it. Glad you got one!