^ Certainly. And Janich did test the Yojimbo for penetration IIRC, at which it did remarkably well. So certainly both knives are not "one trick ponies."
C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
I would be the last person on the planet to challenge the wisdom and vast knowledge that Mr. Michael Janich has so freely shared with us over the years here on the Forum. I've learned a lot from him here on the forum and from several survival and knife magazine articles in which he has done for various publications.
I would be interested to know what Mr. Janich thinks of the C-60 on an objective basis??>> and I'm not asking him to compare it head to head to any of his designs either. Because those designs are different animals with different objectives.
I would be interested to know what Mr. Janich thinks of the C-60 on an objective basis??>> and I'm not asking him to compare it head to head to any of his designs either. Because those designs are different animals with different objectives.
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Michael Janich
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Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Hey, JD:
Thank you for the kind words.
Like any design, I think the first place to start in appreciating it is with the designer's intent. In Mas' own words (https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/spy ... 803/page-2 , post #40), he said:
The rationale was to get the blade directly in line with the radius bone of the forearm when the average human wrist was in the "locked" position, which puts the middle knuckle of the hand directly in line with the axis of the forearm.
This is what gives the C60 its superior stabbing accuracy that posters in this thread have mentioned, and it also gives tremendously more penetration, because it aligns the skeleto-muscular support structure of the arm with the point (number one), and therefore with anyone who knows how to put his weight behind a punch, gets the entire body's force going directly behind the point (number two).
As other posters have also noted, the handle-to-blade angle puts much more force behind a slash as well as a stab. Instead of the blade "skimming" over the target as it hits hard resistance such as bone, the 90 degree angle of the blade when held in reverse grip (and KEPT there by a handle shape that allows the thumb to lock it at that angle) the C60 is more likely to shear directly through whatever resistance it encounters. Because of the design features, something very similar happens with a slash from the conventional saber or pekal grasp.
As to the tip-down carry: I'm one of those early Spyderco fans whom Sal calls "Clipiteers," [:)] who started their Spyderco experience with the original Police model, learned to open it with a pinch-snap, and discovered we could win bets beating guys with bali-songs and even "automatic knives" in opening speed. The pinch snap uses the gross motor movement of the closed hand instead of the more fine-motor skill of using the thumb to open the blade via the original design intent of the "Spyder-hole."
As has also been noted (you guys n' gals are sharp, no pun intended) the C60 had ambi holes drilled so the clip could be moved for southpaws. I did not consider tip-up carry in the design parameters, and would have to go back and play with the concept a lot more to see how well it would work in that fashion. I realize that a lot of folks are as habituated to tip-up carry as I am to tip-down.
And needless to say, I'll give a +1 to the sprint run suggestion...:)
In understanding Mas' thought process, I think it's also helpful to know that he was a student of Shotokan karate--a very linear Japanese style. As such, he had an affinity for straight-line punching. This was also evident in the one-handed shooting skills he advocated in his "Stressfire" shooting curriculum. As such, the logic of his folder design is consistent with his preferred skill set.
As I've noted in previous posts, the negative angle of the blade also increases the pressure and leverage during cutting strokes. This is a signature element of most Ed Schempp designs and is also seen in most knives used in competitive cutting, like BladeSports. Long before that, it was a defining feature of traditional martial designs like the Indonesian rencong.
From a utilitarian standpoint, the negative angle of the blade definitely increases cutting power and leverage, allowing the user to maintain a straighter, stronger wrist orientation. Similarly, for piercing, it does align the blade with the axis of the forearm, allowing for a direct transfer of energy. If those qualities allow it to work better for your individual needs, I understand and respect your appreciation of the design. While you're waiting for a Sprint Run, I also strongly encourage you to invest in a Schempp Bowie, as it offers all the same qualities for all the same reasons.
From a self-defense perspective, the Ayoob is purpose designed to harness the power of a trained, linear thrust. While thrusting can have a high degree of lethality, it does not stop an attacker as decisively as most people think. From a cutting perspective, ballistic cutting with short-bladed knives that have pronounced negative blade angles makes it difficult to use the entire length of the edge. If you engage with the heel of the edge and a natural wrist angle, you tend to strike your index finger on the target before the cut begins. Although the power of the cut near the point is increased, you need greater precision to cut without knuckle banging. That precision typically forces you to cut with only the forward portion of the edge.
One thing that baffles me is Mas' statement "...the 90 degree angle of the blade when held in reverse grip (and KEPT there by a handle shape that allows the thumb to lock it at that angle)..." I don't see the Ayoob as a reverse-grip tool. If gripped that way, it also completely negates the design intent of aligning the blade with the axis of the forearm.
In simple terms, the Ayoob is a specialized design. Making full use of its design features means investing in and committing to the skills that make those features shine. Once you do that, any other knife you put in your hand that doesn't share those same qualities won't feel "right."
Like everything else in knives, it's ultimately a personal choice. As a good friend of mine (who is also the secret weapon behind much of the knife manufacturing in Taiwan) says: "If you're happy, I'm happy."
Stay safe,
Mike
Thank you for the kind words.
Like any design, I think the first place to start in appreciating it is with the designer's intent. In Mas' own words (https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/spy ... 803/page-2 , post #40), he said:
The rationale was to get the blade directly in line with the radius bone of the forearm when the average human wrist was in the "locked" position, which puts the middle knuckle of the hand directly in line with the axis of the forearm.
This is what gives the C60 its superior stabbing accuracy that posters in this thread have mentioned, and it also gives tremendously more penetration, because it aligns the skeleto-muscular support structure of the arm with the point (number one), and therefore with anyone who knows how to put his weight behind a punch, gets the entire body's force going directly behind the point (number two).
As other posters have also noted, the handle-to-blade angle puts much more force behind a slash as well as a stab. Instead of the blade "skimming" over the target as it hits hard resistance such as bone, the 90 degree angle of the blade when held in reverse grip (and KEPT there by a handle shape that allows the thumb to lock it at that angle) the C60 is more likely to shear directly through whatever resistance it encounters. Because of the design features, something very similar happens with a slash from the conventional saber or pekal grasp.
As to the tip-down carry: I'm one of those early Spyderco fans whom Sal calls "Clipiteers," [:)] who started their Spyderco experience with the original Police model, learned to open it with a pinch-snap, and discovered we could win bets beating guys with bali-songs and even "automatic knives" in opening speed. The pinch snap uses the gross motor movement of the closed hand instead of the more fine-motor skill of using the thumb to open the blade via the original design intent of the "Spyder-hole."
As has also been noted (you guys n' gals are sharp, no pun intended) the C60 had ambi holes drilled so the clip could be moved for southpaws. I did not consider tip-up carry in the design parameters, and would have to go back and play with the concept a lot more to see how well it would work in that fashion. I realize that a lot of folks are as habituated to tip-up carry as I am to tip-down.
And needless to say, I'll give a +1 to the sprint run suggestion...:)
In understanding Mas' thought process, I think it's also helpful to know that he was a student of Shotokan karate--a very linear Japanese style. As such, he had an affinity for straight-line punching. This was also evident in the one-handed shooting skills he advocated in his "Stressfire" shooting curriculum. As such, the logic of his folder design is consistent with his preferred skill set.
As I've noted in previous posts, the negative angle of the blade also increases the pressure and leverage during cutting strokes. This is a signature element of most Ed Schempp designs and is also seen in most knives used in competitive cutting, like BladeSports. Long before that, it was a defining feature of traditional martial designs like the Indonesian rencong.
From a utilitarian standpoint, the negative angle of the blade definitely increases cutting power and leverage, allowing the user to maintain a straighter, stronger wrist orientation. Similarly, for piercing, it does align the blade with the axis of the forearm, allowing for a direct transfer of energy. If those qualities allow it to work better for your individual needs, I understand and respect your appreciation of the design. While you're waiting for a Sprint Run, I also strongly encourage you to invest in a Schempp Bowie, as it offers all the same qualities for all the same reasons.
From a self-defense perspective, the Ayoob is purpose designed to harness the power of a trained, linear thrust. While thrusting can have a high degree of lethality, it does not stop an attacker as decisively as most people think. From a cutting perspective, ballistic cutting with short-bladed knives that have pronounced negative blade angles makes it difficult to use the entire length of the edge. If you engage with the heel of the edge and a natural wrist angle, you tend to strike your index finger on the target before the cut begins. Although the power of the cut near the point is increased, you need greater precision to cut without knuckle banging. That precision typically forces you to cut with only the forward portion of the edge.
One thing that baffles me is Mas' statement "...the 90 degree angle of the blade when held in reverse grip (and KEPT there by a handle shape that allows the thumb to lock it at that angle)..." I don't see the Ayoob as a reverse-grip tool. If gripped that way, it also completely negates the design intent of aligning the blade with the axis of the forearm.
In simple terms, the Ayoob is a specialized design. Making full use of its design features means investing in and committing to the skills that make those features shine. Once you do that, any other knife you put in your hand that doesn't share those same qualities won't feel "right."
Like everything else in knives, it's ultimately a personal choice. As a good friend of mine (who is also the secret weapon behind much of the knife manufacturing in Taiwan) says: "If you're happy, I'm happy."
Stay safe,
Mike
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bearrowland
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Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Cheers Mike!!
Barry
Bonne Journey!
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword
Do what you can, where you are, with what you have! Theodore Roosevelt
MNOSD member 0032
Bonne Journey!
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword
Do what you can, where you are, with what you have! Theodore Roosevelt
MNOSD member 0032
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
That's just awesome information Mr. Janich :) We ought to print that up as a brochure to go into the factory boxes of all these Sprint Run C-60 Ayoob models so each new owner can learn more about the knife they just purchased.
That rundown gives you all the detail about the C-60 Ayoob model. Thank you so much for taking your time to do that for us :) . Can't wait till the C-60 Sprint Run is released :cool:
That rundown gives you all the detail about the C-60 Ayoob model. Thank you so much for taking your time to do that for us :) . Can't wait till the C-60 Sprint Run is released :cool:
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Thank you Michael for the thoughtful and informative post.
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Burton Knut
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Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Holy crap! I just scored one at what I’d call reasonable. I assumed I’d be waiting for the sprint, but I’ll have tracking this afternoon and it will def give my orange Endura K390 (blade swap) some shelf time for work until...
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
No kidding??!! you found a C-60 Ayoob?? Which one did you find the original Almite handled or the 2011 Sprint Run G-10 handled? Whichever it was I must say that "congratulations" are in order. Because finding one of them is quite an accomplishment as hard as they are to find now a days.Burton Knut wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:16 pmHoly crap! I just scored one at what I’d call reasonable. I assumed I’d be waiting for the sprint, but I’ll have tracking this afternoon and it will def give my orange Endura K390 (blade swap) some shelf time for work until...
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Burton Knut
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Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
G10...on a large blade related forum’s FS sub. It still has the factory edge but a little wear from being carried (clip and G10,) clean and centered blade. Not being mint will make it easy to put in the rotation day one. After it hadn’t sold since mid morning I made an offer and the rest is in the USPS system now.
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Thanx Mike. Great stuff.
sal
sal
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Congratulations!! I know exactly how you feel, the day I found mine at a gun show I just about didn't go to, I had a pretty stupid grin on my face all that day! When I saw it in a glass case it was wrapped up in some white protective foam and in a clear zip baggie, I could barely make out it's silhouette. My first thought was "is that what I think it is?" I paid the man and ran to my car! :DBurton Knut wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:16 pmHoly crap! I just scored one at what I’d call reasonable. I assumed I’d be waiting for the sprint, but I’ll have tracking this afternoon and it will def give my orange Endura K390 (blade swap) some shelf time for work until...
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
You just never know what you're going to find at any of these places that sell used stuff. I just found a German made F. Dick sharpening steel ( restaurant & commercial grade) that lists for about $190 new for $3.99 this past Friday. Needless to say I didn't try to bargain with them I just put down the money and bought it.benben wrote: ↑Wed Jan 13, 2021 8:44 amCongratulations!! I know exactly how you feel, the day I found mine at a gun show I just about didn't go to, I had a pretty stupid grin on my face all that day! When I saw it in a glass case it was wrapped up in some white protective foam and in a clear zip baggie, I could barely make out it's silhouette. My first thought was "is that what I think it is?" I paid the man and ran to my car! :DBurton Knut wrote: ↑Tue Jan 12, 2021 5:16 pmHoly crap! I just scored one at what I’d call reasonable. I assumed I’d be waiting for the sprint, but I’ll have tracking this afternoon and it will def give my orange Endura K390 (blade swap) some shelf time for work until...
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
JD!
Tap into your pipeline to find out when we can expect an update!
Tap into your pipeline to find out when we can expect an update!
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
I'm as bewildered as you guys are at this time. But if I do find out anything you can bet I'll be posting it here ASAP.
I'm just guessing that we can probably look for it around April or May of this year 2021. But do consider that's just simply an estimated "guess" on my part. Taking into consideration how things have gone down in the past. I'm almost certain we'll have it by the end of June. But that's my "guess" and nothing solid to base it on.
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
LOL.
Ask and ye shall receive - Per sal in the Slysz Bowie thread:
Ask and ye shall receive - Per sal in the Slysz Bowie thread:
sal wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 4:56 pmI still think it's an interesting discussion and a reasonable request. I'm checking now to see if there id anything in-the-works. If there is nothing happening with the model, I'll put in my pitch for your request, but things are so crazy now, I can't make any promises, especially on time.
I've got a few others going that are waiting on time. For Example, There was a request for a Damasteel UK, and the queue is too full right now to do it. I'm going to try to get a Damasteel Urban for now. We did manage to squeeze in JD's request for the Ayoob, sometimes we get lucky with a maker or a hole in the schedule.
We make a lot of new models and variations, better I think than most, but we are also a niche market that our customers look for new and variety.
sal
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
I'd be surprised if we see all the knives from todays recent Reveal (7) by April or May. I wonder if this Ayoob sprint will even be ready for Reveal 8 around that same time. Even June seems a bit generous to expect to see this one but maybe it could make it's way into Reveal 9 in the fall.JD Spydo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:40 amI'm as bewildered as you guys are at this time. But if I do find out anything you can bet I'll be posting it here ASAP.
I'm just guessing that we can probably look for it around April or May of this year 2021. But do consider that's just simply an estimated "guess" on my part. Taking into consideration how things have gone down in the past. I'm almost certain we'll have it by the end of June. But that's my "guess" and nothing solid to base it on.
-Nick 
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Well I'm still hopeful that this C-60 Ayoob will get to the head of the line somehow. Especially with all the intense interest you seen in this thread and other threads dealing with older "Golden Era" models as well. And the fact that Sal himself seems positive about a C-60 comeback as well as Mr. Massad Ayoob himself giving us his blessings. I got this whole idea inspired from a couple of threads dealing with older Spyderco models. Also I think this Sprint Run depending on how many they elect to do will probably sell out fairly quickly ( 1 month to 6 weeks maybe).Mushroom wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 6:44 pmI'd be surprised if we see all the knives from todays recent Reveal (7) by April or May. I wonder if this Ayoob sprint will even be ready for Reveal 8 around that same time. Even June seems a bit generous to expect to see this one but maybe it could make it's way into Reveal 9 in the fall.JD Spydo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 8:40 amI'm as bewildered as you guys are at this time. But if I do find out anything you can bet I'll be posting it here ASAP.
I'm just guessing that we can probably look for it around April or May of this year 2021. But do consider that's just simply an estimated "guess" on my part. Taking into consideration how things have gone down in the past. I'm almost certain we'll have it by the end of June. But that's my "guess" and nothing solid to base it on.
To be honest I was pleasantly surprised at how much response we got on the C-60 in this thread. The C-60 Ayoob model has always had a steady cult type following over the years. And there are more fans of the C-60 that I actually thought there was. Even when I put the news out over at Bladeforums a couple of months back that we had the green light on this model I was surprised at how many of the hard core Spyderco guys over there that gave a "thumbs up" to the project.
But we'll see how it develops. Because there are so many different factors that will determine when we finally get the finished product>> and truthfully if it takes a while longer to insure that we get a really high quality version of this great model I don't even care if it takes another 8 to 10 months if that's what it takes for great overall results.
Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
Just so you know, I'll take a "not so great" version from an earlier rejected batch, just as long as the lock works. I'd like to have the really nice version, also.JD Spydo wrote: ↑Tue Jan 19, 2021 10:54 pmBecause there are so many different factors that will determine when we finally get the finished product>> and truthfully if it takes a while longer to insure that we get a really high quality version of this great model I don't even care if it takes another 8 to 10 months if that's what it takes for great overall results.
-Brian
A distinguished lurker.
Waiting on a Squeak and Pingo with a Split Spring!
A distinguished lurker.
Waiting on a Squeak and Pingo with a Split Spring!
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popplelopolis
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Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
apologies if this has already been discussed, but I recall hearing that this run would not be in vg-10. seeing the serrated edge endura line in k390 in reveal 7 gives me hope for this run to be in k390. however, lc200n would be another possibility, since seki works with that steel now too, and can be serrated as well! other steels are on the table I'd imagine as well, but those two being the most exciting for me
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TenGrainBread
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Re: C-60 Ayoob Campaign: No I Won't Shut Up
I'd imagine for a self-defense knife, K390 wouldn't be the first choice. Having it on your person every day, you would probably want something somewhat corrosion-resistant. Also, edge retention isn't quite as important considering the use of the knife is not as much for utility. I'm sure it would work fine but if I was making a design brief I would choose something that is corrosion-resistant and has some toughness, like SPY27, LC200N, H1, or 154-CM, or Cruwear even.