Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

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The Meat man
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby The Meat man » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:03 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:20 pm
Which Damasteel? Isn't choosing the alloy a pre-requisite to choosing the pattern?

A list of the various Damasteel alloys is here: https://damasteel.se/our-steel-alloys/

The actual steel type used is _a lot_ more important to me than the pattern. I VASTLY prefer DC18N to DS93x or DS95x.

If this knife is DC18N, I'm in for multiples, even at a $200 price point. If it runs in DS93X or DS95X, I'm not actually super interested, but it depends on the price.

DC18N is only available in Odins Eye™, Grosserosen™, Hakkapella™, Thor™, Hugin™ and Rose™.

So basically, I vote for "any pattern of DC18N" and I vote against "DS93X or DS95X" regardless of the pattern.


A good review of the steel (which helps explain why I'm so much more interested in DC18N) can be found here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/10/15/ ... ore-dc18n/

DC18N is basically made of Vanax, 12c27 and CPM154, although Damasteel calls them N11X, PMC27 and RWL34, respectively.



1. DC18N (any pattern)

Really don't want: DS93X or DS95X (any pattern).
I was not aware of this. I'm 100% with Tom, as long as it doesn't get absurdly expensive.
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Filoso- » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:12 pm

1st. Aegir
2nd. Odins eye
3rd. Really don't want: Vinland

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Woodpuppy » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:48 pm

1. First Choice: Odin’s Eye
2. Second Choice: Hakkapella
3. Really don't want: Grosserosen

It’s really hard to envision the UKPK blade with the pattern revealed by grinding. Primary grind angle is going to affect it so much. Will the eye in Odin’s Eye be revealed as a round or elipse? Some patterns clearly wouldn’t work on this size blade, there’d be no change or the pattern repeating in this sized canvas, such as Grosserosen - it’s too large a pattern. I trust Sal to know what will work in this compact form as opposed to a cleaver or Bowie.
Last edited by Woodpuppy on Mon Jul 13, 2020 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby ChrisinHove » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:03 am

1. Hugin
2. Odin Hein
3. *Not* GrossRosen - too many big gaps

I would certainly pay more for the better Damasteel variant. How much more is a different question, though...

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Cambertree » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:10 am

1. Vinland
2. Thor
3. Baldur

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Superfool » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:31 am

TomAiello wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:20 pm
Which Damasteel? Isn't choosing the alloy a pre-requisite to choosing the pattern?

A list of the various Damasteel alloys is here: https://damasteel.se/our-steel-alloys/

The actual steel type used is _a lot_ more important to me than the pattern. I VASTLY prefer DC18N to DS93x or DS95x.

If this knife is DC18N, I'm in for multiples, even at a $200 price point. If it runs in DS93X or DS95X, I'm not actually super interested, but it depends on the price.

DC18N is only available in Odins Eye™, Grosserosen™, Hakkapella™, Thor™, Hugin™ and Rose™.

So basically, I vote for "any pattern of DC18N" and I vote against "DS93X or DS95X" regardless of the pattern.


A good review of the steel (which helps explain why I'm so much more interested in DC18N) can be found here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/10/15/ ... ore-dc18n/

DC18N is basically made of Vanax, 12c27 and CPM154, although Damasteel calls them N11X, PMC27 and RWL34, respectively.



1. DC18N (any pattern)

Really don't want: DS93X or DS95X (any pattern).
Hi Tom.

You clearly know more about this than me. Can you help me out here?

What are the benefits of DC18N over any of the others in terms of a small penknife?

What will the (probable) extra expense actually give that will benefit the user of the knife?

As far as I am concerned, if DCL18N is good enough for the 40th Spyderco Native, it's good enough for my DAMAUKPK.

With thatbeing said, I don't need a Range Rover to go to the shops. Sure, Range Rovers are nice, but if I dont have to traverse a mine and a forest to get there, would I still get one at 90K? If it cost 20K to get a runaround and 22K to get a Range Rover, then obviously I am getting the RR.

Thanks, David.
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby SSD_777 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:09 am

Superfool wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:31 am
TomAiello wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:20 pm
Which Damasteel? Isn't choosing the alloy a pre-requisite to choosing the pattern?

A list of the various Damasteel alloys is here: https://damasteel.se/our-steel-alloys/

The actual steel type used is _a lot_ more important to me than the pattern. I VASTLY prefer DC18N to DS93x or DS95x.

If this knife is DC18N, I'm in for multiples, even at a $200 price point. If it runs in DS93X or DS95X, I'm not actually super interested, but it depends on the price.

DC18N is only available in Odins Eye™, Grosserosen™, Hakkapella™, Thor™, Hugin™ and Rose™.

So basically, I vote for "any pattern of DC18N" and I vote against "DS93X or DS95X" regardless of the pattern.


A good review of the steel (which helps explain why I'm so much more interested in DC18N) can be found here: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/10/15/ ... ore-dc18n/

DC18N is basically made of Vanax, 12c27 and CPM154, although Damasteel calls them N11X, PMC27 and RWL34, respectively.



1. DC18N (any pattern)

Really don't want: DS93X or DS95X (any pattern).
Hi Tom.

You clearly know more about this than me. Can you help me out here?

What are the benefits of DC18N over any of the others in terms of a small penknife?

What will the (probable) extra expense actually give that will benefit the user of the knife?

As far as I am concerned, if DCL18N is good enough for the 40th Spyderco Native, it's good enough for my DAMAUKPK.

With thatbeing said, I don't need a Range Rover to go to the shops. Sure, Range Rovers are nice, but if I dont have to traverse a mine and a forest to get there, would I still get one at 90K? If it cost 20K to get a runaround and 22K to get a Range Rover, then obviously I am getting the RR.

Thanks, David.
The 40th anniversary Native was "made of DS93X Thor pattern which forge welds layers of RWL34 and PMC27 steels". It's already available on the Native, so I wouldn't want it on this variant too.
Last edited by SSD_777 on Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby SSD_777 » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:28 am

1. Vinland
2. Odin Heim
3. Thor

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby TomAiello » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:28 pm

Superfool wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:31 am
What are the benefits of DC18N over any of the others in terms of a small penknife?
Basically, it has the benefit of Vanax at the cutting edge. Vanax has better edge holding and better corrosion resistance than CPM-154 and 12c27.

We're already talking about a knife that has quite a lot of 'show' and the Vanax core adds some 'go' to that.

DS93x is basically CPM-154 and 12c27. Those are both good mid-range steels. 12c27 is what you see in Mora Knives, for example. Really solid, mid-low end steel, basically. CPM-154 is a higher end steel than that--basically in the range of s30v or VG-10.

Vanax is a genuine super steel. We have yet to see Vanax in a production Spyderco, which would make this, even in a damasteel mix, the first time Spyderco used Vanax. I think that's both a big sales point _and_ a big collectible point, which will make this model quite a lot more desirable, and hence much more likely to be a success for Spyderco.

In terms of an average guy's use, that basically boils down to "it'll stay sharp longer." But I really don't think the average guy is going to be the target market for a Damasteel UKPK. The average guy is going to be perfectly happy (and well served) by the BD1n version. And even the 'give me the Range Rover' crowd may be better served by the S110v UKPK variant.

A Damasteel variant is a true 'knife guy' piece. In terms of average use, it will probably be outperformed (no matter what the Damasteel used) by the s110v variant. And if it is run in DS93X, I'd really expect that the BD1n variant would outperform it as well. I'm not sure that DC18N is really going to perform better than BD1n (because absolutely freakin' NO ONE has a DC18N blade to test against at this point--unless DeadBoxHero has some feedback on the performance of the small knife he wanted to make from his tiny little piece), but it certainly has a better shot at it than DS93X.We can expect that the DC18N is going to perform like Vanax (because that's what the actual knife blade would be), but we don't really know that for sure. If it does perform like Vanax, I think that we'll see knife guys around the world lining up to buy a DC18N UKPK.

Basically, I think that if you are looking at a genuine 'knife guy' piece, that will become a collectors item, then DC18N is pretty much the only choice. And if you're not, then why bother going to all the expense of making a Damasteel UKPK that will simply be outperformed by the basic budget model? If performance is an issue, then DC18N wins. And if performance isn't an issue, then this is a collectible bought by people who are just really into knives, either to use and enjoy (regardless of performance) or to put in their safe and occasionally take out and admire, and in that case, DC18N wins even more, because it makes this Uber-collectible.

Edit to add: And fair point that DS93X has already been used in a production knife (the 40th Anniversary Native) where this would be the very first DC18N production knife ever made (by any company), which is yet another big sales/collectible win.

Side note: I think we can safely discount the DS95X (which is basically a mix of 304 and 316, intended for jewelry, not cutlery) and DS92X (which is made for custom firearm barrels, not knives).

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby foofie » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:24 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:20 pm
The actual steel type used is _a lot_ more important to me than the pattern. I VASTLY prefer DC18N to DS93x or DS95x.

DC18N is only available in Odins Eye™, Grosserosen™, Hakkapella™, Thor™, Hugin™ and Rose™.

So basically, I vote for "any pattern of DC18N" and I vote against "DS93X or DS95X" regardless of the pattern.
Completely agree with Tom.
Steel type is more important than pattern.

I vote:
1) Hakkapella
2) Hugin
3) odin's eye

Thanks for herding cats on this project.

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby fixall » Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:38 pm

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:28 pm
Superfool wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:31 am
What are the benefits of DC18N over any of the others in terms of a small penknife?
Basically, it has the benefit of Vanax at the cutting edge. Vanax has better edge holding and better corrosion resistance than CPM-154 and 12c27.

We're already talking about a knife that has quite a lot of 'show' and the Vanax core adds some 'go' to that.

DS93x is basically CPM-154 and 12c27. Those are both good mid-range steels. 12c27 is what you see in Mora Knives, for example. Really solid, mid-low end steel, basically. CPM-154 is a higher end steel than that--basically in the range of s30v or VG-10.

Vanax is a genuine super steel. We have yet to see Vanax in a production Spyderco, which would make this, even in a damasteel mix, the first time Spyderco used Vanax. I think that's both a big sales point _and_ a big collectible point, which will make this model quite a lot more desirable, and hence much more likely to be a success for Spyderco.

In terms of an average guy's use, that basically boils down to "it'll stay sharp longer." But I really don't think the average guy is going to be the target market for a Damasteel UKPK. The average guy is going to be perfectly happy (and well served) by the BD1n version. And even the 'give me the Range Rover' crowd may be better served by the S110v UKPK variant.

A Damasteel variant is a true 'knife guy' piece. In terms of average use, it will probably be outperformed (no matter what the Damasteel used) by the s110v variant. And if it is run in DS93X, I'd really expect that the BD1n variant would outperform it as well. I'm not sure that DC18N is really going to perform better than BD1n (because absolutely freakin' NO ONE has a DC18N blade to test against at this point--unless DeadBoxHero has some feedback on the performance of the small knife he wanted to make from his tiny little piece), but it certainly has a better shot at it than DS93X.We can expect that the DC18N is going to perform like Vanax (because that's what the actual knife blade would be), but we don't really know that for sure. If it does perform like Vanax, I think that we'll see knife guys around the world lining up to buy a DC18N UKPK.

Basically, I think that if you are looking at a genuine 'knife guy' piece, that will become a collectors item, then DC18N is pretty much the only choice. And if you're not, then why bother going to all the expense of making a Damasteel UKPK that will simply be outperformed by the basic budget model? If performance is an issue, then DC18N wins. And if performance isn't an issue, then this is a collectible bought by people who are just really into knives, either to use and enjoy (regardless of performance) or to put in their safe and occasionally take out and admire, and in that case, DC18N wins even more, because it makes this Uber-collectible.

Edit to add: And fair point that DS93X has already been used in a production knife (the 40th Anniversary Native) where this would be the very first DC18N production knife ever made (by any company), which is yet another big sales/collectible win.

Side note: I think we can safely discount the DS95X (which is basically a mix of 304 and 316, intended for jewelry, not cutlery) and DS92X (which is made for custom firearm barrels, not knives).
According to Larrin's article I linked in the other thread where we talked about the differences between Damasteel options, the performance of DS93X should fall in between the powdered metal version of 12c27 and CPM-154, which should put it's performance a bit above BD1N, but not by much. I think slightly better performance than BD1N, with the fantastic looks of Damasteel, as well as the corrosion resistance (something you don't get with a lot of other damascus steels), at a fair price makes a regular DS93X Damasteel UKPK insanely enticing and worth the effort (and I think there were be plenty of people with cash in hand who agree).

Vanax is such an interesting steel and I would love to see a cladded DC18N UKPK. Cladded steels already look fantastic in my opinion... Add in the great looks of Damasteel and and the performance of Vanax (assuming N11X performs the same or similarly) and I don't see how that knife could be anything but a winner.

My only concern is that when I check the prices at my regular suppliers, DC18N Damacore looks to be 2.5 to 3 times as expensive as DS93X Damasteel for the raw material (not sure how that would change with a larger scale purchase) and has very limited availability.

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Brock O Lee » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:39 am

1. First Choice: Rose
2. Second Choice: Ladder
3. Really don't want: Grosserosen
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby PSquared » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:08 am

Part of the discussion on the pattern possibly needs to be the contrast of the etch. Spyderco tends to use a very contrasty etch. Personally, I much prefer the more subtle etch where catching the light at the right angles reveals more of the pattern than the etch does. I think, it makes for a more intriguing aesthetic than a high contrast almost black / very light grey finish.

The image below is one I took for a thread a few years ago on Japanese Damascus - Spyderco Delica on top vs Seki Cut and Mcusta VG10 Damascus - I really didn't like the Delica's Damascus and sold the knife.The same argument will apply, for me, on the Damasteel etch. If it is too dark, I am not interested.

Image

Just because this thread needs pics - my Damasteel blades.

Image

The etch on the LionSteel in the middle is borderline for me but survives in my collection because percentage of dark is so small.

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby archangel » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:27 am

Thanks Tom, really appreciated.

I admit I would not really use any Damasteel knife. I'd enjoy looking at it. Call me a freak, or dumb. But I have no problem admitting this. And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone with this. :)

As a result, I'd probably enjoy both DS93X and Vanax Damasteel blades equally. But the knowledge that the Vanax version would theoretically perform better, and would be a first in the Spydie universe, would make it more desirable. I'd pay more for that, as long as it's still affordable for me at all.

Heck, if we get the chance to have a Vanax Damasteel UKPK now, I can still try to get a DS93X blade later! ;)
Last edited by archangel on Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby archangel » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:29 am

PSquared wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:08 am
Just because this thread needs pics - my Damasteel blades.

Image

Those are beautiful. You're a lucky guy. Thanks for sharing!
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The count is 37 / 34

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby TomAiello » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:55 am

fixall wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 11:38 pm
My only concern is that when I check the prices at my regular suppliers, DC18N Damacore looks to be 2.5 to 3 times as expensive as DS93X Damasteel for the raw material (not sure how that would change with a larger scale purchase) and has very limited availability.
What percentage of the cost of this knife will be raw blade steel?

The blade on the UKPK is tiny. Blade steel cost will increase the price, but not as much as (for example), making a Maxamet UKPK, because grinding cost is a larger percentage of final price than metal cost.

I think we need Sal (or someone) to give us a realistic idea of the difference in final cost using DC18N v. DS93X. If it raises the price by $50, I think it's still a win. If it raises the price by $250, I think it won't sell (well, except to some crazy people like me). If it's somewhere in between, I think more feedback/discussion is in order.

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Superfool » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:29 am

Sal has said he is looking into this, so lets give him some time. I don't personally care to this depth about this aspect, and he i would rather leave it in Sal's hands.

I don't want to do a poll for every single conceivable aspect of this knife. While new to this cat-herding game on the forum, I feel I have learned that the more choices there are, the harder it is to make decisions,
and the more people start exploring really expensive stuff. Then a minority of people start demanding all sorts of things, and the budget goes crazy.

This happened with deciding handle material. One person wanted a complete redesign, and a ton of expensive stuff, saying he wouldn't buy it if it wasn't. Then he said he didn't really like the UKPK anyway, and wasn't going to buy it anyway.

I just want to remind everyone that we are not making a platinum class $1000 knife. Or a $500 knife. We are trying to aim at keeping this under $150.

Lets see what Sal has to say.

Sal? Are you there?
Last edited by Superfool on Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Superfool » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:39 am

Also, Sal, further to my last, I feel that the blade thickness was slightly bigger on the Ti and CF models, than on the standard frn models.

Would it cost much to make the blade a little 'meatier' like those, for a bit more of a premium feel?
Last edited by Superfool on Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby TomAiello » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:15 pm

For me, the blade is the heart of the knife. I can always change handles, make custom scales, or whatever. And I admit that usually I don't bother. But I cannot change the blade, and that's what I'm primarily interested in.

I'm happy to have a Manix 2 Maxamet, even though the handle is 'only' FRCP. And I'd honestly prefer a run of Maxamet UKPK to any other option (including damasteel).

In terms of the Damasteel, it makes a huge difference to me what the underlying composition is. I plan to carry and use the knife, and having the Vanax core/edge will make a tremendous difference to me in using it. I also think it will make a major difference to collectors, even though that's not really where I am with this knife.

Your question about blade thickness makes me wonder what thickness the DC18N is available in, though. Does anyone know?

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Re: Damasteel UK Penknife UKPK - DAMASTEEL PATTERN

Postby Woodpuppy » Sun Jul 12, 2020 12:17 pm

I’d rather keep the blade thin; it’s a slipit after all so particularly suited for slicing.
:spyder: My other blade is a Kelly Perfect :spyder:


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