Blacked out knives question

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Dross8731
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Blacked out knives question

Postby Dross8731 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:26 am

Is the all black Yojimbo 2 the only knife that has a fully black compression lock?

What about the Para 2 with camo scales? I notice some online retailers have a stock photo and it seems the compression lock is black, and others appear silver?

Does the digi-cam para 2 with DLC blade have a black compression lock? Or any other models?

Thanks in advance
Last edited by Dross8731 on Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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eRoc
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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby eRoc » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:33 am

As far as I know the Yojimbo 2 is the only one. I've never seen a production PM2 with black compression lock.

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby Michael Janich » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:47 am

Correct. The Yojimbo 2 is the only Compression Lock knife with black liners.

Stay safe,

Mike

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steelcity16
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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby steelcity16 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:54 am

Michael Janich wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:47 am
Correct. The Yojimbo 2 is the only Compression Lock knife with black liners.

Stay safe,

Mike

Why exactly is this? Are we going to start seeing coated liners on future DLC compression and/or liner (ex. Military) lock knives? I am a bit OCD with this type of thing, so it really bothers me when the liners are not coated on DLC knives. The DLC Manix and Native family looks so much better with everything coated. The new Pacific Salt 2 is another that looks incredible fully blacked out.
:spyder: CRU-CARTA THEM ALL! :spyder:

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SubMicron
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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby SubMicron » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:07 am

While not a compression lock, a Manix 2 is an easy way to achieve a blacked out knife.

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby Rinzler » Thu Jul 09, 2020 1:29 pm

SubMicron wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:07 am
While not a compression lock, a Manix 2 is an easy way to achieve a blacked out knife.
Or an autonomy, which one could argue is a modified compression lock.

Image

Dross8731
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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby Dross8731 » Thu Jul 09, 2020 10:05 pm

steelcity16 wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:54 am
Michael Janich wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:47 am
Correct. The Yojimbo 2 is the only Compression Lock knife with black liners.

Stay safe,

Mike

Why exactly is this? Are we going to start seeing coated liners on future DLC compression and/or liner (ex. Military) lock knives? I am a bit OCD with this type of thing, so it really bothers me when the liners are not coated on DLC knives. The DLC Manix and Native family looks so much better with everything coated. The new Pacific Salt 2 is another that looks incredible fully blacked out.


I was wondering the same thing, I seen the black blade Emerson opener Para 2 at Blade Ops and I wasn't sure why they didnt blacken the liners/lock on that model.

I just got an all black Pacific 2 SE a few weeks ago and have been enjoying it.

Im having a funny craving for black bladed Spydercos lately haha

I used to own the older style Manix 2 with the black 154cm blade, and a black SE Native.., wish I still had those two and didnt get rid of them a few years back



Thanks everyone for the replies

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steelcity16
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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby steelcity16 » Tue Jul 21, 2020 7:16 am

Michael Janich wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:47 am
Correct. The Yojimbo 2 is the only Compression Lock knife with black liners.

Stay safe,

Mike

Hi Mike, Do you think we will start seeing black liners on other comp lock knives like the PM2 and Para 3, and possibly on liner lock knives like the Military? I personally can't stand seeing uncoated liners on DLC knives, so this would be a HUGE improvement in my eyes.
:spyder: CRU-CARTA THEM ALL! :spyder:

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby James Y » Tue Jul 21, 2020 8:46 am

I mentioned this in the ‘Unpopular Opinions’ thread; I would prefer that all DLC models be fully DLC’d, liners and all. My reason has less to do with aesthetics than with the fact that DLC coating promotes better corrosion resistance. Liners, etc., are places where humidity/dampness can become trapped and cause corrosion, far more than just on the blade itself. Some people say that DLC does not aid corrosion resistance, and some say it even promotes corrosion, which I disagree with.

I don’t have a Yojimbo 2, but I do have a DLC Manix 2, which is almost/virtually fully blacked out, and is great.

Jim

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby SubMicron » Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:48 pm

Regarding corrosion resistance and DLC, from what I understand, the DLC does not stop rust. Obviously it will hide patina, but the steel can still rust. So if it can patina and rust, the DLC is not there directly for the purpose of corrosion resistance.

My thinking, based on my observations, is that when using oil to coat a DLC blade, the DLC helps keeps the oil in place longer, which then arguably will help promote corrosion resistance.

Thoughts?

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby vivi » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:26 pm

SubMicron wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:48 pm
Regarding corrosion resistance and DLC, from what I understand, the DLC does not stop rust. Obviously it will hide patina, but the steel can still rust. So if it can patina and rust, the DLC is not there directly for the purpose of corrosion resistance.

My thinking, based on my observations, is that when using oil to coat a DLC blade, the DLC helps keeps the oil in place longer, which then arguably will help promote corrosion resistance.

Thoughts?
In my experience, which I admit seems atypical, DLC significantly improves corrosion resistance.

In the summer I wear running shorts nearly every day outside of work. I carry my Spyderco clipped to my waistband, where it'll get exposed to sweat all day. Aside from salts, a DLC S30V Manix XL is the only knife I've carried this way without seeing a single speck of rust.

I carried that Manix IWB for a few years without any rust at all. For comparison, this VG10 Police got light spotting after being carried IWB for just 4 hours.

I recently bought one of the M4 Manix XL's in DLC. While I don't plan to carry itIWB every day, I do plan on running a couple of tests with the blade to see if my experience is the same with a carbon steel.
Current favorites:

Military DLC | Police 4 K390 / Pakkawood | Manix XL M4 DLC / Micarta

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby JuPaul » Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:37 pm

SubMicron wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:48 pm
Regarding corrosion resistance and DLC, from what I understand, the DLC does not stop rust. Obviously it will hide patina, but the steel can still rust. So if it can patina and rust, the DLC is not there directly for the purpose of corrosion resistance.

My thinking, based on my observations, is that when using oil to coat a DLC blade, the DLC helps keeps the oil in place longer, which then arguably will help promote corrosion resistance.

Thoughts?
I really believe that dlc actually soaks up oil. It sure seems to. And if that's really the case, then I would definitely think an oiled dlc blade would resist corrosion better than a satin blade since the oil just wipes off the satin blade in your pocket or on whatever you're cutting. I'll admit, though, I oil all my blades (non-stainless ones more often) and I rarely have corrosion issues with any blade steel.
- Julia

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby JMM » Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:22 pm

JuPaul wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:37 pm
SubMicron wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:48 pm
Regarding corrosion resistance and DLC, from what I understand, the DLC does not stop rust. Obviously it will hide patina, but the steel can still rust. So if it can patina and rust, the DLC is not there directly for the purpose of corrosion resistance.

My thinking, based on my observations, is that when using oil to coat a DLC blade, the DLC helps keeps the oil in place longer, which then arguably will help promote corrosion resistance.

Thoughts?
I really believe that dlc actually soaks up oil. It sure seems to. And if that's really the case, then I would definitely think an oiled dlc blade would resist corrosion better than a satin blade since the oil just wipes off the satin blade in your pocket or on whatever you're cutting. I'll admit, though, I oil all my blades (non-stainless ones more often) and I rarely have corrosion issues with any blade steel.


I have actually watched DLC drink oil before... a friend of mine asked for help with a S30V DLC blade he had that had gone untouched for years, and the DLC was actually a lighter shade of grey. Over the course of a day and half I put 4 coats of mineral oil on the blade, one after the other it got a little darker, by the time the fourth coat had been on there for a couple hours it was back to 90+% the colour it should have been. I think relying on DLC to do what oiling should do in terms of corrosion resistance is a bad idea, but keeping your DLC blade properly oiled for me has led to me never once having corrosion issues on tool or stainless steels.

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby James Y » Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:52 pm

JMM wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:23 pm
JMM wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:22 pm
JuPaul wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:37 pm
SubMicron wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 12:48 pm
Regarding corrosion resistance and DLC, from what I understand, the DLC does not stop rust. Obviously it will hide patina, but the steel can still rust. So if it can patina and rust, the DLC is not there directly for the purpose of corrosion resistance.

My thinking, based on my observations, is that when using oil to coat a DLC blade, the DLC helps keeps the oil in place longer, which then arguably will help promote corrosion resistance.

Thoughts?
I really believe that dlc actually soaks up oil. It sure seems to. And if that's really the case, then I would definitely think an oiled dlc blade would resist corrosion better than a satin blade since the oil just wipes off the satin blade in your pocket or on whatever you're cutting. I'll admit, though, I oil all my blades (non-stainless ones more often) and I rarely have corrosion issues with any blade steel.


I have actually watched DLC drink oil before... a friend of mine asked for help with a S30V DLC blade he had that had gone untouched for years, and the DLC was actually a lighter shade of grey. Over the course of a day and half I put 4 coats of mineral oil on the blade, one after the other it got a little darker, by the time the fourth coat had been on there for a couple hours it was back to 90+% the colour it should have been. I think relying on DLC to do what oiling should do in terms of corrosion resistance is a bad idea, but keeping your DLC blade properly oiled for me has led to me never once having corrosion issues on DLC'd tool or stainless steels.
Was your friend’s DLC blade grey from having been heavily used in the past, from dirt/dust accumulation, or just from sitting around for a long time? I ask, because I have a few DLC-coated knives (non-Spyderco) that have sat unused for over ten years, and they still look exactly the same; the black hasn’t faded at all.

Jim

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby sal » Tue Jul 21, 2020 5:21 pm

Hi Dross,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby JMM » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:16 pm

James Y wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:52 pm
JMM wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:23 pm
JMM wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 4:22 pm
JuPaul wrote:
Tue Jul 21, 2020 2:37 pm


I really believe that dlc actually soaks up oil. It sure seems to. And if that's really the case, then I would definitely think an oiled dlc blade would resist corrosion better than a satin blade since the oil just wipes off the satin blade in your pocket or on whatever you're cutting. I'll admit, though, I oil all my blades (non-stainless ones more often) and I rarely have corrosion issues with any blade steel.


I have actually watched DLC drink oil before... a friend of mine asked for help with a S30V DLC blade he had that had gone untouched for years, and the DLC was actually a lighter shade of grey. Over the course of a day and half I put 4 coats of mineral oil on the blade, one after the other it got a little darker, by the time the fourth coat had been on there for a couple hours it was back to 90+% the colour it should have been. I think relying on DLC to do what oiling should do in terms of corrosion resistance is a bad idea, but keeping your DLC blade properly oiled for me has led to me never once having corrosion issues on DLC'd tool or stainless steels.
Was your friend’s DLC blade grey from having been heavily used in the past, from dirt/dust accumulation, or just from sitting around for a long time? I ask, because I have a few DLC-coated knives (non-Spyderco) that have sat unused for over ten years, and they still look exactly the same; the black hasn’t faded at all.

Jim
It was completely new

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby TkoK83Spy » Tue Jul 21, 2020 6:41 pm

I have had rust form on the edges of my DLC/M4 Para 3, as well as my DLC/52100 Manix 2 during the summer months over the previous couple summers. I had them coated in mineral oil, the entire blade and edge bevel. I used them for a few days without reapplying more mineral oil.

I came back to them about a week later when I was ready to Flitz and mineral oil all my DLC blades at once and get them back to tip top shape. That's when I noticed the rust on the edge of those two knives, yet nothing on the DLC. That led me to think that DLC may aid in corrosion resistance.

I've heard, read and seen many different results. I've seen DLC M4 as well as 4V with rust spots, but everyone's body composition, materials they cut and the way they care for their knives is different.

These days, if I'm using a tool steel with or without DLC, especially during summer months, I will reapply a light coat of mineral oil to the entire blade after each day, and I'm yet to experience any kind of rust, corrosion or pitting.

In my totally non scientific and personal use, I think DLC and mineral oil are a great aid in preventing rust/corrosion.
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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby Michael Janich » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:13 am

Getting a definitive answer on DLC and its effect on corrosion resistance is difficult.

When I managed the Masters of Defense knife company, just about everything we made was DLC coated by IonBond. When I was personally doing warranty repairs for MOD, I got to see a lot of DLC-coated knives that had been used in the field--including some of our products that were made from A2 tool steel. At the time, MOD founder Jim Ray told me that DLC would protect the steel from corrosion and that its only vulnerability was the exposed steel at the edge. What I saw coming back from the field supported that.

When I did see minor surface rust on DLC-coated blades, it was random and blotchy. At the time, it didn't make sense. Then I read a post from Darrell Lewis, the guy who spearheaded Ionbond's coating efforts in the knife/tactical communities (and did all the DLC work for MOD) that said this:

NONE/ZERO/ZIP of the Family of Vacuum Deposited Coatings ARE GOOD Corrosion Barriers, That being said, these coatings can't rust because these is no presents of Iron/Ferrite in the coating itself.. It's a coating only 2-4 Microns in thickness with microscopic pin holes, corrosion can start there and on the cutting edge migrating under the coating causing rust.

The Benefit of coatings for corrosion is they absorb oil like a sponge, Maintain your knife, rinse it off from time to time and reapply a coat of oil, wipe dry and you'll have Great Corrosion Protection;

We all want a knife that, Won't Rust, Light Weight, Stays Sharp forever, with the latest materials.. It doesn't exist, But were working on it... almost forgot.. For Under $100.00 Made in the USA...

Darrell


The original BladeForums thread for this is here: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/dlc ... t-12835892.

Jim Ray told me that, after trying every oil he could find, the one that looked best on DLC was LPS TKX. Before a show, we'd spray the blades, let them sit for a minute or two, and then wipe them off. They stayed a lustrous black color for the whole show. Other lubes we tried would "dry" to a lighter, more charcoal color. Nevertheless, it was clear that Darrell's statement that DLC "absorbed oil like a sponge" was accurate.

With regard to his comment on "microscopic pin holes" in the coating, this study seems to corroborate that:

https://www.sbpmat.org.br/icam2009dir/s ... s/R542.pdf

It also provides a strong comparison between DLC and TiN coatings, at least in their specific test.

Putting all this together, it seems that DLC as a coating does help prevent corrosion, but by itself, is not a guarantee because it has some degree of porosity. Oil a DLC blade and it will retain that oil very well, most likely eliminating much of that porosity in the process.

Finally, the deeper you go down this rabbit hole, the more you'll find that there are tremendous differences in the technology of applying DLC coatings, so it seems impossible to generalize and say "all DLC coatings" do anything exactly the same.

And, just so you don't think I'm ignoring your original question about black liners, I honestly don't know. That decision is above my pay grade; however, like all things Spyderco, if you really want something, keep asking for it here.

Stay safe,

Mike

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby TkoK83Spy » Wed Jul 22, 2020 8:21 am

Thanks for your reply here Michael! It's nice to see some quotes from people that REALLY know what their talking about...besides us talking heads here on the forum that can only base things off of what we experience on our own. :p
23 :spyder:'s in 13 different steels
2 - ZT's - 0460 and 0470
1 - Microtech Ultratech DE OTF
1 - Benchmade 940 (BHQ Exclusive/M4)
1 - CRK Small Sebenza 31/Macassar Ebony Inlays

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Re: Blacked out knives question

Postby James Y » Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:15 am

Thanks for another great explanation, Michael!

Jim


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