HOW exactly do you experience, differenciate and evaluate different steels?

[Wartstein]

Many of you seem to have very clear and elaborated opinions on (quite many) different steels, in respect to parameters like edge holding, sharpenability, even on very detailled aspects like if a steel looses a "scary sharp" edge rather quickly but keeps a "working edge" for a long time or vice versa and so on.

Most times these opinions and consequent statements seem to be based all on personal experience and are not formulated as assumptions, but more as facts, if I read the comments right.

Now my question, purely out of curiosity, not to offend or doubt anyone(!):

- HOW do you folks come to those very "experty" and detailled opinions, conclusions and differentiations on steels?
- HOW do you for example differentiate to what amount properties of an edge are due to the steel, and to what due to other factors, like edge angle, blade thickness and so on?
Imho this takes a lot of time and also awareness of what you´re doing when using a knife.
If one does not have a job that involves a lot of and frequent cutting (which some of you certainly have), in order to REALLY be sure about the different properties of rather similar steels, would one not have to invest a good amount of time in something like controlled cutting tests?

I use knives quite a lot, and certainly can tell the differences between lets say VG10 and HAP 40. It is just obvious in day to day use, that VG10 is quicker to touch up, but does not hold an edge as long. No doubt, just what experience shows.

But then I restrict the amount of folders to max. 10 at any point in time, and many of them feature the SAME steel (so for quite some time now for example I "only" have 5 different steels to experience and try out)

If I owned MORE folders and MORE steels and MORE different additional factors like geometry and so on came into play: I would never have the time and the cutting tasks to be able to come to such clear statements and conclusions about steels.

So, again: Whats the "method" of you folks with lets say a more urban life, that does not involve a lot of cutting, and owning many different knives in many different steels to come to such clear conclusions and opinions?

[Doc Dan]

I am not very "scientific". I use my knives daily in routine things. It might be the kitchen where I have a number of different steels. It might be pocket knives where I have quite a few different steels. And then there is a hunting knives in various steels (some get used in the kitchen nowadays). All of my experience is not based upon cutting rope or cardboard but how these perform on a variety of media. I have interesting observations regarding steels, as a result.

I notice, for example, that some steels in the real world are not noticeably better than another (e.g. BD1N and VG-10).
I notice that some steels just do not cut some materials well, while others glide through them (e.g. stretchy plastics and foil cracker packs).
I have noticed a couple of steels that do better if I do not put them on the fine stones and leave the edge coarser, while others do better after being put to the fine stones.

This is all based on general daily use and are only my observations.

[VooDooChild]

Im not scientific in steel evaluation at all. At least not yet.

With that said I think sharpening can tell you a lot.

[Jurphaas]

Hi Wartstein,
Good question. Spyderco has a great "Edge-U-Cation" section in the Catalog and on the Website.
To find it you go to:
1. Egde-U-Cation,
2. Steel terms (catalog page 194)
3. Steel elements (catalog page 195)
These two pages are simple and well written. They will tell you all about the differrent steels and the steel elements.
After studying these pages you will have a vast knowledge of the steels and the element that make up the different steels.
Go, Wartstein, Go! make your self a Steel "expert".....
Jurphaas.

[Wartstein]

Hi Wartstein,
Good question. Spyderco has a great "Edge-U-Cation" section in the Catalog and on the Website.
To find it you go to:
1. Egde-U-Cation,
2. Steel terms (catalog page 194)
3. Steel elements (catalog page 195)
These two pages are simple and well written. They will tell you all about the differrent steels and the steel elements.
After studying these pages you will have a vast knowledge of the steels and the element that make up the different steels.
Go, Wartstein, Go! make your self a Steel "expert".....
Jurphaas.

Thanks, that´s good advice generally, but tbh: Of course I know these sites already...

I guess I did not put my initial question clear enough:

- It is NOT about theoretical knowledge about different steels! ( I do have that myself to a certain, not to low degree)
- It IS about how "normal" people find the time and opportunities to use, experience and compare so many steels extensively enough (and that mostly on different models!) to being able to form so firm and definite opinions about steels based on their own experience!

For example: When it comes to theoretical knowledge I could say that Maxamet holds an edge amazingly long and so on, but I can NOT say that I really experienced and evaluated that myself...

[JuPaul]

My preferences on steel are all based on my subjective experience, although I generally go to Larrin's data and BBB or maybe Michael Christy videos when researching a new steel. But I'll fully admit I'm not very methodical in my steel "testing," and I hope that it's clear I'm expressing only my own anecdotal impressions when I talk about a steel. Mostly, I pay attention to how often I need to sharpen or touch up a knife, how easily it sharpens for me, and how well the edge resists damage. Lately I've also be playing around with performance after sharpening at different grits. But I certainly wouldn't try to publish my fingings or anything!

I really need to go the "Rick method" and carry just one knife for an extended period of time...

[Wartstein]

My preferences on steel are all based on my subjective experience, although I generally go to Larrin's data and BBB or maybe Michael Christy videos when researching a new steel. But I'll fully admit I'm not very methodical in my steel "testing," and I hope that it's clear I'm expressing only my own anecdotal impressions when I talk about a steel. Mostly, I pay attention to how often I need to sharpen or touch up a knife, how easily it sharpens for me, and how well the edge resists damage. Lately I've also be playing around with performance after sharpening at different grits. But I certainly wouldn't try to publish my fingings or anything!

I really need to go the "Rick method" and carry just one knife for an extended period of time...

Yes, he seems to be certainly one of those who puts enough use on his knives to really be able to form a personal opinion on a wider variety of steels...
But tbh, when it comes to people owning knives in 30 different steels, but not using each of those frequently: I am not sure if it''s really fully possible to form the sometimes seemingly very firm personal opinions based on real use.
Or, perhaps, there is a bit of a bias towards what people already EXPECT from a certain steel based on what they heard or read...

[TomAiello]

I buy the Manix 2 in each steel (I think I may actually now own that exact blade in every single steel it's been made in, except 154cm, which I really didn't like at all). Then I EDC the steel for several weeks straight to form an opinion. I use it for all my daily tasks during the time and form a non-scientific opinion of how the steel works for me. I always sharpen every blade at least once during that time (even if it doesn't need it) as well. Most of the steels need more than one sharpening. One (Maxamet) I just sharpened because I wanted to see how that went.

The other blade I have worked into this rotation for a very small number of interesting steels is the Bradford Guardian 3 (which I also own in almost every steel it's been made in) when I'm interested in testing in a fixed blade (CruWear) or I want to try a steel Spyderco doesn't use, or doesn't use yet (Vanadis 4 extra, which I got because I couldn't wait to try 4v).

It's totally non-scientific, but it works for me. And it evaluates _my_ daily tasks, as opposed to the daily tasks of another person, or a (more scientific, but less personalized) generic cutting task. It also factors in things like technique (perhaps I twist the blade more, for example, and therefore need more toughness than someone with better cutting techniques).

I admit that a very few steels have had an unfair "EDC test" period. For example, 20cv got used to re-sod my lawn, so it cut up _a lot_ of soil when I was trimming the new sod, but in general I still think I get a pretty good feel for my average tasks.

[TkoK83Spy]

Cool thread to create Wartstein. It's funny because I had those same kind of feelings before starting this thread ( viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86207)

My collection of knives and various steels just kept growing and growing. My problem was, that I would use a different knife EVERYDAY of the week because I have so many. But, in doing that...I was never really learning anything about the steel or knife itself. I was finding that after everyday, no matter what knife I used, if I was cutting a lot of cardboard/rope/strapping/etc that it would lose that "scary sharp" edge. If it was VG10/M390/M4/Rex45...same "results" I'd just take the knife after one day of use and give it a couple licks on the brown or fine rods, a couple passes on the strop and bring it back to peak sharpness and call it a day. Onto a different knife tomorrow.

I would always read about all these different steels and how people think they were great and what not and would think to myself "Rex45 seems the same as VG10" because of my method of use. I knew there HAD to be a reason behind the various steels and prices the knives are that come with them. Then, when I finally decided to force myself to carry a specific knife all week long. I wouldn't touch it up after using it until the end of the week. Also, to be able to really compare the steels I only used knives that hadn't been reprofiled or sharpened at any point with anything less grit than the brown rods, to even the playing field of my little tests.

When it comes to knife use, I'm one of the lucky ones that has as job that requires a lot of cutting. Most of the time, it's the same materials day in and day out. That's why I thought it would be fun to create that thread, because each knife got fairly consistent use. Towards the end of the thread (to this point, because I don't have any new steels to play with) I really started to get more consistent in the amount of cardboard/tubing/rope I would cut to finish off the knife for the week. (thanks to MeatMan with his very specific test he did in that thread) Nothing was ever TOTALLY controlled, but enough for me personally to get an idea about a steel by the end of the week. Then was the fun part of sharpening afterwards and learning even more about the steels.

I know there are people that use their knives way less than me, that are WAY more knowledgeable about knives and steels. I just happen to have the ability to use mine more often and figured I'd relay my findings to anybody that was interested in reading them! It's been a lot of fun, but also a lot of work...I'm kind of liking my little break right now while waiting for something new to pop up :)

[SG89]

Hey Rick, if you think about it you are kind of paid to test edge performance/knife designs... Pretty cool!

[TkoK83Spy]

Hey Rick, if you think about it you are kind of paid to test edge performance/knife designs... Pretty cool!

That's true in a way! When I was using the 52100/Manix and was cutting up all those small lengths of rope, one of the guys from work that knows I like knives (just not to the extent that I actually LOVE KNIVES :cool: ) came down to our motor storage area where I was doing that cutting, because it's kind of out of the way. He had a question for me about something else, but he's like "what are you doing with all those pieces of rope??" So I told him, and for him not to think I'm a dork! He said "you do you man, pretty cool you're getting paid to do that haha"

[SubMicron]

For me at work I have to cut through a lot of cardboard that's extremely dirty and heavy duty. Furniture cardboard. These are big sheets that have to be made small for recycling purposes, or I get a fine.

All of that dirt and grit in the cardboard is a disaster for an edge.

Mixed with that are various fine edge tasks such as cutting open a thick plastic bag that's wrapped around some of the furniture. Any little dings in the apex snag the bag and creates problems.

I need to maintain a relatively fine edge that doesn't have reflective spots on the apex. If I dont, I make a mess on the carpet in my store and I cant control my cuts through the big bags with expensive merchandise inside.

To make things more difficult, at work I'm limited to a very small knife. A Lil Native and Dragonfly are my everyday. Occasionally I'll push my luck with a Native 5 so I can bring Maxamet to work.

Generally at work my "big knife" is the Lil Native (seriously) which I'll use for the cardboard or other things that are harsh, and my "little knife" is a Dragonfly which I use for fine edge stuff, such as the plastic bags and a lot of other things.

So when I get a steel in a knife that can be bought to work, it doesn't take me long to see how well it holds up.

S30V & M390 dont have what it takes. They both easily accumulate reflective spots on the apex however I can see a clear contrast between them and M390 does a little better.

REX-45 and Maxamet survive my work day with ease.

[Evil D]

I think most of it is based on perception, and ties into what I said the other day about some steels just working better for some people. All you need to prove this idea is to look at S30V, there are people who refuse to buy knives because of it but there's also a S30V support thread going on so why is the opinion of that steel so different between people? How can it be a great EDC steel for one guy and be absolute garbage to the next? We CAN look at technical data and evaluate a steel performance and we have guys like Larrin who have done real scientific tests and can rank steels against each other, so we can look at a given steel and there really shouldn't be a debate about whether it's good or not based on that data, right?

Yet here we are. We either assume that somehow a steel is failing one guy while it's performing great for others, or there's more to steel performance than what you see on a graph. You can probably also blame some of this on placebo and hype.

[TkoK83Spy]

I think most of it is based on perception, and ties into what I said the other day about some steels just working better for some people. All you need to prove this idea is to look at S30V, there are people who refuse to buy knives because of it but there's also a S30V support thread going on so why is the opinion of that steel so different between people? How can it be a great EDC steel for one guy and be absolute garbage to the next? We CAN look at technical data and evaluate a steel performance and we have guys like Larrin who have done real scientific tests and can rank steels against each other, so we can look at a given steel and there really shouldn't be a debate about whether it's good or not based on that data, right?

Yet here we are. We either assume that somehow a steel is failing one guy while it's performing great for others, or there's more to steel performance than what you see on a graph. You can probably also blame some of this on placebo and hype.

Great points David. I think people's sharpening abilities factor into their own perceptions as well. I know when I first got my Sharpmaker, I struggled mightily for months. I thought S30V wasn't very good, when in reality...I wasn't a very good sharpener. I'm not some kind of sharpening guru even now 3 years later, but I certainly have no problem getting S30V to where I want it and find it to be a pretty great middle of the road steel. You won't hear me knocking it!

[brj]

With that said I think sharpening can tell you a lot.

^this

Statement: I love thin H1 for EDC as I can quickly restore sharpness via light stropping on jeans / against the top curve of my car window / using a flat river pebble when trekking.

The above statement is a sort of Shroedinger's cat, true and false at the same time.
To me, it's an absolute truth since I've been doing all of the above with consistent results since 2007.
To other people it might sound purely subjective or even borderline silly and they can quickly dismiss it without a second thought. Or, better yet, they test it out only to learn that the same methods yield different results to them.

And this is one of the things that make this hobby so much fun: there is so much theory to absorb and yet it boils down to your own empirical testing or educated opinion or even gut feeling, and then it becomes the absolute truth to you. And that is absolutely ok, as long as you don't try to force your opinion on others. :)

[wrdwrght]

You have revealed doubt that “30 different steels” can be known well enough to reach an informed opinion, unlike people, such as yourself, who have only a small number of steels.

Doesn’t your question have a baked-in bias?

[standy99]

Butcher for years and sharpening knives for other people and myself, use of knives from fishing, hunting to food prep daily.

Freehand wet stone sharpening the same way for years, you get to know what it takes to get a edge. Using that edge let’s you know how long it lasts.

Learnt years ago not to worry what is written on the internet about steels.

Use M4 and A2 around salt water and as long as you take care of the steel there is no issue. If I was to ask on a forum I would be told these 2 steels should not be used around salt water.

Being nearly 50yo there are no bad steels in Spyderco’s line up. Personally I wouldn’t pay a premium over S30V for anything but M4. Buy H1 for fishing knives and on the boat.

Love M4 and H1. Most of the knives I own are S30V and S35V and have a mix of 10 other steels.

[Karl_H]

- HOW do you folks come to those very "experty" and detailled opinions, conclusions and differentiations on steels?
- HOW do you for example differentiate to what amount properties of an edge are due to the steel, and to what due to other factors, like edge angle, blade thickness and so on?

So, again: Whats the "method" of you folks with lets say a more urban life, that does not involve a lot of cutting, and owning many different knives in many different steels to come to such clear conclusions and opinions?

I will give you a casual knife user, metallurgist perspective:

Key Performance Indicators
I focus on 6 variables:
1. Hardness, which is a good indicator of resistance to edge rolling and deformation.
2. Toughness, which is a good indicator of resistance to chipping
3. Carbide size and volume, which indicates how fine of an apex I will likely be able to achieve
5. Fresh water (no Cl-) corrosion resistance
6. Salt water (Cl-) corrosion resistance
4. CATRA edge retention, which is a good indicator of wear resistance to silica (and other abrasives of similar hardness)

I get virtually all of my information from Larrin, Roman Landes, the knife maker, and/or the steel manufacturer. Anecdotal experience (even my own) isn't really a significant factor in my purchasing decisions. It is very easy to fool yourself, so I try to rely on standardized test data and calculations, as much as possible.

Prioritization and Evaluation Criteria:
My primary consideration is to achieve the thinnest possible grinds (without edge deformation or chipping), so I look for the hardest steels, with a minimum CVN impact toughness of 10 ft-lbs.

My secondary consideration is minimize carbide size and volume, so I look for powder metallurgy steels with <10% carbide volume.

My third consideration is corrosion resistance because I live in a dry climate and can oil the blade and/or clean when it will get wet.

My fourth consideration is wear resistance because I generally avoid cutting abrasive materials with my knives.

Useful References
1. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/wha ... -18129004
2. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/08/05/ ... -not-fail/
3. https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/20/ ... ery-knife/

P.S. Unless you are a metallurgist, knowing the steel chemistry is not at all useful. Even if you are a professional metallurgist, it isn't very useful without knowing exactly how it is being heat treated. Heat treatments are generally treated as trade secrets, which makes knowing the steel chemistry not very useful. It's better to focus on performance test data of heat treated steel.

[SubMicron]

I think most of it is based on perception, and ties into what I said the other day about some steels just working better for some people. All you need to prove this idea is to look at S30V, there are people who refuse to buy knives because of it but there's also a S30V support thread going on so why is the opinion of that steel so different between people? How can it be a great EDC steel for one guy and be absolute garbage to the next? We CAN look at technical data and evaluate a steel performance and we have guys like Larrin who have done real scientific tests and can rank steels against each other, so we can look at a given steel and there really shouldn't be a debate about whether it's good or not based on that data, right?

Yet here we are. We either assume that somehow a steel is failing one guy while it's performing great for others, or there's more to steel performance than what you see on a graph. You can probably also blame some of this on placebo and hype.

The placebo factor no doubt comes into play for some people however I think the biggest factors are the sharpening and the usage profile. Specifically how abrasive of materials are you cutting, how much of it is being cut, with what frequency, and how much pressure is used while doing so.

An additional massive factor is how the end user defines "sharp." Example: An edge that I would resharpen would be an edge that's just getting started for some people.

So for a person who hard uses or volume uses a knife while cutting abrasive materials AND expects it to hold an edge without reflective spots developing is definitely more likely to be disappointed with something like S30V or even M390.

[SubMicron]

My secondary consideration is minimize carbide size and volume, so I look for powder metallurgy steels with <10% carbide volume.

I like your post but I got stuck on this point.

Why do you look for less than 10% carbide volume?