HOW exactly do you experience, differenciate and evaluate different steels?

[Pokey]

I’ve used my Endura w/ an Emerson opener in the kitchen. With the saber grind on the blade it acts more like a wedge for splitting firewood on dense, crisp, fruits and vegetables. I have to go easy when cutting apples because they’ll split in half and I’ve bashed the edge into the Richlite cutting board.

The VG-10 steel will peen and get flat spots in the edge. I’ve done the same thing with an S90V blade and no flat spots. (No surprise there.) So under the same conditions it’s easy to see a difference in the steel.

[Wartstein]

Well, that is all fine, but what has that got to do with how you test your steels, if at all? I think this wandered a bit. I do agree that there are experts out there that do a good job in designing, but we cannot simply take their word for things. That is a common logical fallacy. We must check the given data for ourselves.

Doc, you nailed it.
I wish I had given this thread a different title, something like "How do many of you find the TIME, OPPORTUNITIES and "controlled enough" conditions to form such firm opinions about MANY steels based on personal experience while living a "normal life" with a job and a family and not doing actual cutting tests all the time
I just could not do this, despite I use my knives quite often.
For example: I think even if I had only S30V and S35VN knives I could never tell the difference between these two steels without very detailled test rows (I had a Native in S35VN, in my layman use it "behaved" just like S30V, could not tell any difference whatsoever).

[standy99]

For example: I think even if I had only S30V and S35VN knives I could never tell the difference between these two steels without very detailled test rows (I had a Native in S35VN, in my layman use it "behaved" just like S30V, could not tell any difference whatsoever).

I doubt anyone could tell the difference between the two.

Using knives in tasks that are the same is key.
For instance using H1 for over 10 years on the boat and fishing and now using LC200N. Verdict give me H1 any day.
Both great steels but H1 is easier to keep a edge on with the least amount of work to keep it sharper longer.

My Mule test between #23 and #27 was a 3 months in the kitchen for each one.


To me cutting a rope 100 times makes me laugh inside. I used to bone 85 hindquarters of beef every Monday when I was a butcher.

[JD Spydo]

Do keep in mind that virtually all blade steels have their "strengths" and their "weaknesses". Take H-1 blade steel for instance. It's now pretty much a consensus that it's a premium blade steel for Spyderedges ( serrations) but in plain edge it's got a lot to be desired. Thank GOD that LC200N is now available. And I do think that those Nitrogen based steels have a bright future being used in cutlery.

There are a few blade steels that are good in PE & SE both. VG-10 is one of the few that I like in both edge types. I can also put ATS-55 in close to that same distinction. But most of the blade steels are either good in PE or really excel in SE. All steels have their own set of properties that are useful in some areas and no so good in others.

But my bottom line is that there is no test nearly as good as putting a certain blade steel through hard, brutal usage. That's the one test that doesn't put forth bogus or questionable results.

[Wartstein]

.....

Using knives in tasks that are the same is key.
For instance using H1 for over 10 years on the boat and fishing and now using LC200N. Verdict give me H1 any day.
Both great steels but H1 is easier to keep a edge on with the least amount of work to keep it sharper longer.

My Mule test between #23 and #27 was a 3 months in the kitchen for each one.


To me cutting a rope 100 times makes me laugh inside. I used to bone 85 hindquarters of beef every Monday when I was a butcher.

Thanks, you again made clear what I initially meant and that I should have titled this thread differently (again, something along the lines of ""How do many of you find the TIME, OPPORTUNITIES and "controlled enough" conditions to form such firm opinions about MANY steels based on personal experience")

Your example concerning H1 vs LC200N is a perfect one how I actually totally CAN see that it is easily possible to form a valid opinion on two steels and how they compare to each other, purely by personal experience.
Another one is the way how Rick approaches this (he describes it in some previous post).
But what you have in common: A lot of use of not too many different steels.

But: If one has knives in very many steels... and obviously is not cutting much on a daily basis... how is it possible to come to such firm conclusions over often really minor differences? Based on personal experience

Let me give an example: I am a lot into skitouring / backcountry skiing.
If I had five pairs of powder skis and a season of 150 days, I certainly could tell the differences between those skis at the end of the season (concerning stability at high speed, how well they turn and so on) - even if the skis all looked exactly the same from the outside (but where made of different materials, stiffness and so on on the inside)
Now: If I had 20 pairs of skis and a season of 50 days: Not so much... and that is despite I know a bit about skis and skiing.
AND: It is a lot easier to find out how certain SKIS behave, cause you notice the differences between two models that in the very first turn you make.
While with steels: You have to a certain amount of cutting and subsequent sharpening (which takes time and the appropriate tasks) before you even begin to SEE / FEEL the differences...

[standy99]

Another one is the way how Rick approaches this (he describes it in some previous post).
But what you have in common: A lot of use of not too many different steels.

But: If one has knives in very many steels.....

I use many steels, and have many knives believe me. From many brands and many custom makers.
I sharpened knives for several hunters in the last few days so I see so many knives and steels it’s not funny.

My analogy above was on specific task ie; what I use for fishing almost weekly.


Learn to sharpen knives and sharpen knives for other people is the best way to learn about knives if you don’t use them enough. Start of doing it for free until your good enough.
My payment is usually beer and many a time I get to chat about the knives I’m sharpening and how they were used and preformed if the person is there having a beer while I sharpen their knives.

On a side note, single steels are easy. Wait to you get to 3 steel Damascus hunting knives worth 4 figures :D :D

[Doc Dan]

.....

Using knives in tasks that are the same is key.
For instance using H1 for over 10 years on the boat and fishing and now using LC200N. Verdict give me H1 any day.
Both great steels but H1 is easier to keep a edge on with the least amount of work to keep it sharper longer.

My Mule test between #23 and #27 was a 3 months in the kitchen for each one.


To me cutting a rope 100 times makes me laugh inside. I used to bone 85 hindquarters of beef every Monday when I was a butcher.

Thanks, you again made clear what I initially meant and that I should have titled this thread differently (again, something along the lines of ""How do many of you find the TIME, OPPORTUNITIES and "controlled enough" conditions to form such firm opinions about MANY steels based on personal experience")

Your example concerning H1 vs LC200N is a perfect one how I actually totally CAN see that it is easily possible to form a valid opinion on two steels and how they compare to each other, purely by personal experience.
Another one is the way how Rick approaches this (he describes it in some previous post).
But what you have in common: A lot of use of not too many different steels.

But: If one has knives in very many steels... and obviously is not cutting much on a daily basis... how is it possible to come to such firm conclusions over often really minor differences? Based on personal experience

Let me give an example: I am a lot into skitouring / backcountry skiing.
If I had five pairs of powder skis and a season of 150 days, I certainly could tell the differences between those skis at the end of the season (concerning stability at high speed, how well they turn and so on) - even if the skis all looked exactly the same from the outside (but where made of different materials, stiffness and so on on the inside)
Now: If I had 20 pairs of skis and a season of 50 days: Not so much... and that is despite I know a bit about skis and skiing.
AND: It is a lot easier to find out how certain SKIS behave, cause you notice the differences between two models that in the very first turn you make.
While with steels: You have to a certain amount of cutting and subsequent sharpening (which takes time and the appropriate tasks) before you even begin to SEE / FEEL the differences...

The skis are a good example, thanks. That is what I do with a knife. For example, I formed my liking for K390 because I carried and used just that one knife over months of time. It is my favorite non-stainless steel, now. I cut everything, even stuff I did not need to, and once something I shouldn't have. I formed my opinion of MBS-26 and BD1N specifically from using these steels in my kitchen on a daily basis in place of other steels and I have a good feel for what they will and will not do. In the case of BD1N I also have a UKPK that gets a workout, too. Other steels are like that and so I have developed my ideas based upon using a particular knife for months. I can even tell you that BUCK 440C is hard and it is chippy and 425M will chip but does not hold an edge as long, but with that maximized heat treat is surprising. I can tell you that I do not care for S110V. I do not hate it, but the amount of edge holding I get versus how long it takes to resharpen is not worth it. I like S30V as a general steel because it works and holds a good edge. H1 still surprises me and I need to get a bigger knife in it. I have two Dragonflies that I have cut a lot of stuff with. Even plain edge holds an edge longer than people would have us think. It is not bad and it is easy to sharpen again. All of this I know because of using knives on a lot of different stuff over time.

[bearrowland]

I'm a little late, but this thread answers a question I've been meaning to ask for a long time.

[Bill1170]

My personal experience is only with a few steels, used at work (construction) and leisure. I own knives that were gifts, whose steel I have little to no practical experience with.

The ones I’ve used a lot are the stainless Victorinox uses, VG-10, ZDP-189, S30V, MBS-26, 440A, 9Cr18Mo, AUS-8, M390, S110V, H-1, and LC200N. I still own and use knives in all those except for S30V, which I sold to a friend. Each one has a different sharpening response, common failure mode, and “personality.”

Kitchen use, field use, and shop use all yield insights.

[JohnDoe99]

Carbon content and which alloying metals are used are the key indicators for me. Rockwell can help figure how high the tempering was, which directly affects stainlessness and wear resistance, and brittleness.

I am actually coming to enjoy s110v now that I am using a jig to set the angle how I want. Very stainless steel, and once the edge is set the edge holding is substantial.

Murray Carter has a bunch of tests he does on youtube, he is a very knowledgeable guy. Also seek out Cliff Stamp. He and Carter are biased against high carbide, and diamond in Carter's case, but they acknowledge the utility of such blades. I think they do that mainly in the interest of scientific impartiality, to combat what they see as a trend.

Geometry really is the most overwhelming factor of edge performance in general. For example, if your primary edge angle is not very, very uniform/straight, your edge retention will be horrible regardless. This is where a jig shines. You can overcome the problem with softer steels like 14c28n, but not s110v unless you have very steady hands. DMT's "Aligner" setup is very good for reprofiling blades at or under 4 inches. You will to need to freehand after with a ceramic rod for awhile because of DMT's grit contamination, it shreds the edge, but once broken in their jig system is nice. I continue using ceramic aftet diamond because I love how ceramic sharpens.

You dont need a lab. Select a test to do, perform it multiple times, and see what the results tell you. Modify the test to learn different things. "Science" is easy.

https://youtu.be/Rottm1-RecI

[Abyss_Fish]

I beat the snot out of my knives, that's it really. I found that a few of my 20cv edc knives were corroding a bit and that I had trouble sharpening them. My sharpening set up is not great to say the least... plus I do a lot of hiking and I live in Minnesota where it's either snowy and -10 or 90% humidity and 90. Therefore I went for Lc200n (spydiechef, waterway, handleswapped native salt), which I also happen to LOVE the sharpening characteristics of. I also work in a kitchen, where I initially used a pocket knife in vg-10 (wharny dragonfly), which rusted often and went dull quickly, then I went to s30v (orange wharny delica) which also rusted often but held a keener edge. Which meant nothing because it chipped out every other use. So I've given up and gone to coated s90v (manix 2 orange lightweight, coated blade), although if I could get my hands on a Caribbean I'd do that... Basically I just find something cheap that somewhat fits my use case and then refine.

For those reasons Lc200n and 3V will always be my two favorite steels. They absolutely excel at what they're meant to do, hold an extremely keen edge for s30v/s35vn-ish amounts of time, and are ductile enough to make maintenance easy.

To be fair I am an aspiring chef so I have A somewhat different point of view. Ductility (so basically non-chip-itude) and specific use are the two most important things for me. The only place I like "all arounder" types of steels is in my "all arounder" types of kitchen knives, in which case Super Gold Powder Steel (SG2) / R2 / High Speed Powder Steel are the clear winners. Although If I could get a spydiechef in Damascus jacketed SG2 I would give Sal direct access to my bank account.

[Wartstein]

I beat the snot out of my knives, that's it really......

To be fair I am an aspiring chef so I have A somewhat different point of view......

Thanks for your reply!

From what you say you are definitely one of those where I can see how one can really get detailled, comparable and reliable impressions of steels in use and based totally on real, personal experience!

Again, what I wonder is how people who have knives in very many steels but obviously use those not really frequently and not in a way that would make them directly comparable very well, come to sometimes very firm, personal conclusions concerning different steels and how they compare.
I am NOT saying that this is not possible (!), but maybe sometimes a good amount of what people "experience" is still influenced by what they read and knew about a certain steel before they really used it... ?

[JD Spydo]

I think another way you could evaluate blade steels is to use them in a very harsh, corrosive environment. Because there are a lot of harsh environments that could quickly destroy the edge on some blade steels. The nitrogen based steels like H-1 and LC200N have made great strides in that area.

It's going to be interesting to see what else develops in that sector of nitrogen based, corrosion resistant steels. Also to evaluate blade steels would be to intentionally cut materials that are notoriously rough on blade edges. A few things that come to mind are cardboard, nylon straps and other polymers.

[Bill1170]

I think another way you could evaluate blade steels is to use them in a very harsh, corrosive environment. Because there are a lot of harsh environments that could quickly destroy the edge on some blade steels. The nitrogen based steels like H-1 and LC200N have made great strides in that area.

It's going to be interesting to see what else develops in that sector of nitrogen based, corrosion resistant steels. Also to evaluate blade steels would be to intentionally cut materials that are notoriously rough on blade edges. A few things that come to mind are cardboard, nylon straps and other polymers.

Used carpet full of grit will ruin edges very fast.

[PStone]

I don’t typically have an expert opinion. In fact, I usually qualify my statements regarding steels and sharpening with words like novice and learning. And 5 years ago, I would’ve told you Buck was the be all, do all, end all knife. Even though mine couldn’t have cut so much as a fart.

But now I evaluate steels and designs by getting them into service. By using one for a few weeks, I am able to provide a variety of tasks, that are specific to me and my uses. I am able to take the time to evaluate any damage or dulling. I take note of whether it’s deforming, chipping, rolling, (or tips breaking). I also use the same stones on all my knifes. That’s another way I can tell if I’m going to like a steel or not. Some deburr easier, some polish easier, some take for-ev-er. And over the last few years, I have tried many steels and many designs. By selling one to fund another. I don’t think I’m alone in that though.

And what I found is, that while at first I enjoyed it, I actually don’t like to sharpen knifes. I love a crisp clean toothy apex, I just dread getting there sometimes. So what I end up searching for, is a steel that will go all week long without a touch up or anything. Right now, Maxamet should be my go to for that. However, not knowing what I may use my knife for any given day, it tends to get benched for M4. M4 can go all week, no touch ups usually, and can handle the occasional accidental over-slice into the concrete without chipping. But I wouldn’t have known that without carrying and using it.

TL;DR
By using one for a few weeks, evaluating damage taken, how it sharpens on the same stones used for all my knifes. Also if I can go an entire work week without sharpening.

[TkoK83Spy]

Pretty similar to how I evaluate mine. I also forget to mention, using the same stones definitely aids in comparing. Nothing beats using a knife pretty hard all week long and not even needing a touch up...but giving it a few passes just for the heck of it to bring it back to that peak sharpness! I can appreciate that instead of spending half my night doing the same for similar results (Rex45, 4V and M4) have been my favorites because of that great edge retention and ability to quickly touch up.

[Albatross]

Over time, my experimentation had become more scientific, but still couldn't be classified as such. I did buy a KME sharpener to make my "testing" more uniform, but have yet to fully implement it. I'm just not impressed with how long guided systems take, compared to bench stones, but the consistency of the edges appeases my OCD.

My experiences have come from carving wood, cutting cardboard, scraping surfaces, and daily tasks, such as opening a package. I noticed that some steels didn't fare well when faced with knots in a piece of wood, while others did. Some steels could whittle away for hours, while others for much less. Last year, I tested a 204P PM2 and an S110V PM2 on a bunch of large boxes, all of which had contained bar stools, so there was no noticeable difference in the quality or dimensions(thickness) of the cardboard. I've used several knives to scrape rust off metal surfaces as well. Some can handle it, some roll or chip. My original "testing" was just using a knife at work, hoping I would see a drastic difference in edge retention and stability. VG10 was my benchmark, and it needed to be touched up or stropped every night, with a full sharpening 1-2 times per week. It didn't take long to find steels that performed better for me. I'll eventually get around to controlled cut tests, but I'm happy with my progress so far. I share my thoughts, but never specific results(numbers etc.) simply because my testing is too loose to have meaning for anyone besides myself. Fortunately, my thoughts, based on the results I have gotten, seem to align with the thoughts and experiences of others, so I must be doing something right. My testing has evolved and will most-likely continue to do so, until I'm satisfied with the information I have.

Corrosion testing has never been an interest for me, so any information I have about it is secondhand or personal anecdotes that could very well be inaccurate.

Sharpening and edge characteristics are my main interests, but most people don't care about which stones I used, to get that toothy, but polished edge, at 10 dps, or how the burr formation affects the sharpening process. Most people don't care enough to notice a difference between how a fine grain, low carbide steel cuts vs a super high carbide steel. I've shared my thoughts on edge characteristics, but it's not quite what people are looking for, at least when it comes to testing.

Testing the same model, in different steels has been the fastest way for me to see what differences are due to steel vs geometry. Keeping the edge angle the same, or as close as possible, on the same model, in different steels, is about as close to accurate as I can get. That's why I have 5 Para 3s, with more on my "to buy" list.

[Steeltoez83]

I don't like posting test results bcuz how much the slippery slope actually is. The test medias are generally the same for me but everyone is vastly different in needs/use. I carry one knife until it's dull, auxillary blade in the boot for backup. My current test carry just happens to be rex45, but a random number generator picked this one from 14 possible choices. And when it's dull the sharpening will be done by the same method of random selection of 14 different progressions. Some are diamond progressions, some are Arkansas stone progressions. I mapped everything out before I started and I'm currently on the 35th test of 40. I did deviate a little bit with some spy27 and a few runs with a reheat treated xhp chaparral. I have been brainstorming how my next block of testing will be outlined. Avoid some flaws I experienced with this current method. I would like to express my opinions in a blog like format down the road.