HOW exactly do you experience, differenciate and evaluate different steels?

[Danke]

How do you carve out an elephant statue? Simply remove anything that doesn't look like an elephant.

How do you play the guitar, cook food, write books, take photographs? How do you "evaluate" steel.

Some people have an innate ability to feel how the knives cut. If you have that and spend time cutting and understanding steel you'll be set. If you don't have it you can still learn and decide what steel works for you. You just may never become an expert at understanding cutting tools.

[JuPaul]

My preferences on steel are all based on my subjective experience, although I generally go to Larrin's data and BBB or maybe Michael Christy videos when researching a new steel. But I'll fully admit I'm not very methodical in my steel "testing," and I hope that it's clear I'm expressing only my own anecdotal impressions when I talk about a steel. Mostly, I pay attention to how often I need to sharpen or touch up a knife, how easily it sharpens for me, and how well the edge resists damage. Lately I've also be playing around with performance after sharpening at different grits. But I certainly wouldn't try to publish my fingings or anything!

I really need to go the "Rick method" and carry just one knife for an extended period of time...

Yes, he seems to be certainly one of those who puts enough use on his knives to really be able to form a personal opinion on a wider variety of steels...
But tbh, when it comes to people owning knives in 30 different steels, but not using each of those frequently: I am not sure if it''s really fully possible to form the sometimes seemingly very firm personal opinions based on real use.
Or, perhaps, there is a bit of a bias towards what people already EXPECT from a certain steel based on what they heard or read...

I'm sure that's all true, for myself included. I definitely have a bias toward non-stainless steels because of earlier negative experiences with (non-spyderco) 8cr and Aus-8. For a long time my only non-stainless steels were budget ones like 1095, but after discovering spyderco's hap40, I felt like Jasmin: "a whole new world!" It was easy to sharpen, yet still stayed sharp for a relatively long time, and the edge didn't chip easily. I fell in love. That led me to try cruwear, 4v, rex45, etc. Could I tell the difference btw Cruwear's edge retention and 4v's? Doubt it. But edge retention isn't my highest priority. Edge stability is, as well as my ability to sharpen a steel well. And imo, those qualities are much easier to notice even when you only carry a knife once a week (depending on how you use it).

Still...I really should be more systematic. Like a few others have said, I like trying new steels on the same platform (delica, manix 2, pm2), but I need to commit to carrying a new steel for a few weeks straight. It's just so hard when you have other knives calling to you each morning! I think I'm on track to get a good feel for spy27, s90v, and SE lc200n this summer as those three steels have been my main edcs all summer.

[wrdwrght]

How do you carve out an elephant statue? Simply remove anything that doesn't look like an elephant.

How do you play the guitar, cook food, write books, take photographs? How do you "evaluate" steel.

Some people have an innate ability to feel how the knives cut. If you have that and spend time cutting and understanding steel you'll be set. If you don't have it you can still learn and decide what steel works for you. You just may never become an expert at understanding cutting tools.

Where’s the Like button?

[The Meat man]

I don't think I'd call them "experty", but my opinions on knife steel performance are based on a number of factors.

1. My own experiences with both everyday use and semi-controlled testing;
2. The experiences and testing of others;
3. Scientific information from trustworthy sources such as Larrin and BBB.
4. General consensus information from knowledgeable people such as the folks on this forum.

All these factors play a role in my evaluation of a knife steel. Some more so than others, but all are valuable to me in assessing steel performance.

[Sharp Guy]

The only way I really differentiate any steel is by how easy or difficult it is to get sharp. I'm always carrying something different and I touch them up as needed so edge retention is pretty a non-issue for me. Same with toughness and corrosion resistance. I manage production and the warehouse for a cabinet company. So I do use my knives at work to cut poly banding, cardboard, etc but never had a chipping issue with any steel and haven't really had any corrosion issues either.

[Karl_H]

I like your post but I got stuck on this point.

Why do you look for less than 10% carbide volume?

This is based on the research and recommendations by Dr. Roman Landes and the fact that I use a KME sharpening system that can give me grind angles down to about 12-15 dps, depending on the blade height.

Metallurgist Dr. Roman Landes says:
- if carbide volume is 0.5-5%, to both take and hold a high polished sharpness, you need 8-12 degrees per side.
- if carbide volume is 5-15%, to both take and hold a high polished sharpness, you need 12-20 degrees per side.
- if carbide volume is greater than 15%, to both take and hold a high polished sharpness, you need 20-30 degrees per side."

So, my inference is from these recommendations is that to "take and hold a high polished sharpness" 12-15 dps edge, a carbide volume of ~10% or less would be preferred.

This is not dogma or gospel, just a personal mental benchmark. According to Larrin, Z-Wear/CPM-CruWear (1975°F) is 10% carbides by volume (Source: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/05/26/ ... fe-steels/)

For more info on how carbide volume affects performance, see:
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/05/28/ ... -of-edges/ (See sub-section "Effect of carbide volume on low-cycle fatigue")
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/08/27/ ... stability/ (See sub-section section "Chipping and Carbides")
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/09/24/ ... ty-part-2/ (See sub-section "Effect of microstructure")

[Wartstein]

Cool thread to create Wartstein. It's funny because I had those same kind of feelings before starting this thread ( viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86207)

My collection of knives and various steels just kept growing and growing. My problem was, that I would use a different knife EVERYDAY of the week because I have so many. But, in doing that...I was never really learning anything about the steel or knife itself. I was finding that after everyday, no matter what knife I used, if I was cutting a lot of cardboard/rope/strapping/etc that it would lose that "scary sharp" edge. If it was VG10/M390/M4/Rex45...same "results" I'd just take the knife after one day of use and give it a couple licks on the brown or fine rods, a couple passes on the strop and bring it back to peak sharpness and call it a day. Onto a different knife tomorrow.

I would always read about all these different steels and how people think they were great and what not and would think to myself "Rex45 seems the same as VG10" because of my method of use. I knew there HAD to be a reason behind the various steels and prices the knives are that come with them. Then, when I finally decided to force myself to carry a specific knife all week long. I wouldn't touch it up after using it until the end of the week. Also, to be able to really compare the steels I only used knives that hadn't been reprofiled or sharpened at any point with anything less grit than the brown rods, to even the playing field of my little tests.

When it comes to knife use, I'm one of the lucky ones that has as job that requires a lot of cutting. Most of the time, it's the same materials day in and day out. That's why I thought it would be fun to create that thread, because each knife got fairly consistent use. Towards the end of the thread (to this point, because I don't have any new steels to play with) I really started to get more consistent in the amount of cardboard/tubing/rope I would cut to finish off the knife for the week. (thanks to MeatMan with his very specific test he did in that thread) Nothing was ever TOTALLY controlled, but enough for me personally to get an idea about a steel by the end of the week. Then was the fun part of sharpening afterwards and learning even more about the steels.

I know there are people that use their knives way less than me, that are WAY more knowledgeable about knives and steels. I just happen to have the ability to use mine more often and figured I'd relay my findings to anybody that was interested in reading them! It's been a lot of fun, but also a lot of work...I'm kind of liking my little break right now while waiting for something new to pop up :)

Thanks! :)

I am aware of the very interesting thread you started, and actually read each post in it.
I just always felt I myself could not contribute much of real value there, but only rather basic impressions of steels that most on this forum are aware of anyway (I do use my knives quite a bit, but in no way in "controlled", comparable settings..)

Your approach towards testing and learning about steels really is one that obviously leads towards gaining a lot of real life knowledge and deeper insight in the differences between steels.

But that´s exactly my point or question in this thread: Not many people DO have a job and the opportunity to cut a lot of stuff day in, day out constantly (and/or do it in such controlled conditions like you do) but still seem to be able to form quite firm opinions on many different steels, despite actually having to do maybe just one or two cuts a day... Tbh, I sometimes wonder if all of them would come to the exact same conclusions and results, if they´d NOT know which steel a certain blade is made of (but all their knives came in blacked out DLC versions without any mention of the type of steel...)

[Wartstein]

How do you carve out an elephant statue? Simply remove anything that doesn't look like an elephant.

How do you play the guitar, cook food, write books, take photographs? How do you "evaluate" steel.

Some people have an innate ability to feel how the knives cut. If you have that and spend time cutting and understanding steel you'll be set. If you don't have it you can still learn and decide what steel works for you. You just may never become an expert at understanding cutting tools.

I see your point and it is a good one!

But: My question here is: Even IF one has that "innate ability", but also a "real life" with maybe a job that does not involve cutting stuff, a family, other hobbies... HOW can one then use a lot of different steels in a lot of different knives (which additionally all might have different geometries, blade heights, edge angles) so frequently, that it is possible to REALLY compare the STEELS against each other? (And I am talking not about just 4 or 5 different steels, but a larger variety)

I think to make use of that" innate ability" still takes a LOT of time to use, dull, sharpen knives. And to remember the properties of a knife one used maybe three weeks ago.
As said: To really experience STEELS imho takes a lot more time and dedication than to experience and compare different locks, handle materials, blade shapes and so on...

[ABX2011]

Most of the opinions I hold are based on what I've read. I don't cut up enough stuff to form an opinion on most steels. I find that I learn a lot through sharpening and cardboard cutting. I'm also a hobbyist knifemaker. I think I'm pretty perceptive when I do have something to evaluate.

[GarageBoy]

What, you don't just listen to your friendly instagram knife influencer with the drawer full of shiny, unused knives?

There's this car enthusiast related podcast (Carmudgeon) where the two hosts were talking about how people generally need to do something for an x amount of time to really know how to do something. The bring up the point that people are always trying expert advice, as a short cut around having to put in time. I guess that's how most people get into supersteels - they try the AUS8/8cr - they want something better, but they don't know what "better" is - read into it, find some dude's review who is just regurgitating what he just read, maybe buys something better, and notices it doesn't chip, or roll, or holds an edge better after cutting a few boxes, etc

Very few knife nerds truly sit there and get to compare steels in a controlled format

[shunsui]

I don't worry about it. Knowledge will come when it comes, and that's going to take some time. I don't stress about statistics or "scientific testing".

Buy a knife, use it. End of story.

Want more ? Plenty of stuff to read here and on other knife forums.

There's a guy named Sal, who probably is well placed to know a lot about all this. He often recommends serrated H1 for bug out bags. I took his advice.

[JD Spydo]

I'm no metallurgist. But I have taken some metallurgy courses at a local community college some time back. But when it comes to knife blade steel I just put a certain blade steel through a hard usage regimen and keep track of it's strengths and weaknesses. M390 has become one of my favorite blade steels for a variety of reasons. Oh I know a bunch of you all are immediately going to tell me that you know of at least 5 blade steels that are better. But M390 works extremely well for my daily chores.

Now with serrated blades it's been a completely different set of circumstances. What makes blade steels work great for plain edges I've found is a completely different animal for serrated blades. Some of my favorite blade steels for serrated blades are VG-10 ( also decent in PE), AUS-8, ATS-55, ATS-34, GIN-1 and 440V. I've found that all of those work great for Spyderco's serrated models.

[Danke]

How do you carve out an elephant statue? Simply remove anything that doesn't look like an elephant.

How do you play the guitar, cook food, write books, take photographs? How do you "evaluate" steel.

Some people have an innate ability to feel how the knives cut. If you have that and spend time cutting and understanding steel you'll be set. If you don't have it you can still learn and decide what steel works for you. You just may never become an expert at understanding cutting tools.

I see your point and it is a good one!

But: My question here is: Even IF one has that "innate ability", but also a "real life" with maybe a job that does not involve cutting stuff, a family, other hobbies... HOW can one then use a lot of different steels in a lot of different knives (which additionally all might have different geometries, blade heights, edge angles) so frequently, that it is possible to REALLY compare the STEELS against each other? (And I am talking not about just 4 or 5 different steels, but a larger variety)

I think to make use of that" innate ability" still takes a LOT of time to use, dull, sharpen knives. And to remember the properties of a knife one used maybe three weeks ago.
As said: To really experience STEELS imho takes a lot more time and dedication than to experience and compare different locks, handle materials, blade shapes and so on...

As some of the other folks have said the key step is spending time to refine your ability. Balance out the street smarts and the book smarts.

[curlyhairedboy]

Unless we're running heavily controlled tests, our end line use is all about finding the best steels for our purposes. The variation in purposes and technique and handling and sharpening makes recommendations from one user to the other an apples to oranges comparison at best.

That's okay, though. It's part of why we like knives and steels and edges.

[The Mastiff]

More than a few years ago I went out of my way to acquire and use every steel I could get my hands on to try and learn all I could learn about. That included importing knives that weren't available here in the states now and then as well as having custom knives made to my specs with makers that would do that.

I would not be satisfied with a steel/knife combo until I had tried out every edge grit finish as well as different geometries. I'd spend a lot of hours on each one and I'd test wood and cardboard but rarely rope as well as other things like dirty carpets, different types of cloth and paper. As much as I did do there was even more I didn't. There was no brass rod flex tests, no serious attempts at measuring sharpness , no record keeping that would make sense to anybody but me.

It was not about proving what steel outperformed what. It was all about deciding which steel I wanted to keep coarse, which one liked highly polished edges and how they felt and sharpened on which stones. I desired to know each steel so I could decide which one I wanted to carry. In truth I added nothing to the hard science of our hobby but I did accomplish what I set out to do for myself.

[Doc Dan]

As I said earlier, I think the best way is to actually use a knife over a variety of media and chores. That and then sharpening will give a lot of useful information, at least to me. I can cut rope all day and still not know how a steel will perform on something else (not saying this is not valuable) or will do other tasks.

[JD Spydo]

As I said earlier, I think the best way is to actually use a knife over a variety of media and chores. That and then sharpening will give a lot of useful information, at least to me. I can cut rope all day and still not know how a steel will perform on something else (not saying this is not valuable) or will do other tasks.

That's just exactly what I just said Doc. Because no matter how good a steel looks on the Moh's Hardness Scale or on any metallurgical charts the bottom line is this>>> how is it going to hold up under your typical daily cutting chores. And there is no substitute for just using it hard and on a wide variety of cutting different materials as well. That's the way I evaluate all my plain edged blades.

But again when I evaluate blade steels for Spyderedges and other commercial serrated blades I've found that blade steels with a lot of toughness properties as well as being very chip resistant. I listed the ideal blade steels I've discovered to be ideal for that on my previous post on this thread. But performance on plain edges versus performance on serrated edges is a completely different criteria all together IMO.

[Naperville]

Sal, Eric and Larrin may be experts but few of the rest of us here are. There may be some very talented people at Spyderco, Benchmade, Cold Steel, RMJ, Spartan Blades, etc, and they manufacture what works for the most part.

DESIGNS
If you want to develop a fighting or combat knife, good for slicing and penetration, you probably buy a side of beef and have at it with different knife designs and steels. You design that tool based around other similar designs. Look at how the blade shapes are different than general use or bushcrafting knives.

If you want to design a knife for cutting cardboard or opening boxes, you are looking for a slicer, so you design that. You know what works, and you use those principles.

STEELS
I do see some unique or out of place knives manufactured, but I'm not interested, because it is not a wise application of the steel or design. I'm speaking of thick Elmax fixed blades that are 5.5 inches long, or other oddballs made with steels that need to be thick because they fracture....the knives are probably not well thought out.

My point is that most of the logical stuff gets made. The manufacturers know what works because they make prototypes and test first. There is too much at stake to release 500 knives that all fail.

FINAL PRODUCT
Prototypes are built, tests are run, knives are used, sometimes for years before they hit the market place.


So how do "WE" know what works as a design or steel for a particular application as users.

I study the different designs from many manufacturers, read steel reviews and try to understand the data, read and watch as many videos on knife reviews as I can. I'm not really interested in what most other users say except for the rare individual because I do not trust them. Why should I trust what a fellow forum user thinks if I can develop expertise or a firm understanding of everything on my own.

For self defense, I look at the weaponry used in combat by the generations before me. Did they have a "high art" that they employed the weapon with? If so, am I prepared to learn that art?

I listen to the best resource available. The experts and manufacturers that make money designing, testing and creating edged weapons and tools.

[Doc Dan]

Well, that is all fine, but what has that got to do with how you test your steels, if at all? I think this wandered a bit. I do agree that there are experts out there that do a good job in designing, but we cannot simply take their word for things. That is a common logical fallacy. We must check the given data for ourselves.

[Naperville]

Well, that is all fine, but what has that got to do with how you test your steels, if at all? I think this wandered a bit. I do agree that there are experts out there that do a good job in designing, but we cannot simply take their word for things. That is a common logical fallacy. We must check the given data for ourselves.

As I said, "I listen to the best resource available. The experts and manufacturers that make money designing, testing and creating edged weapons and tools." And in that group is Larrin and "Cedric & Ada" and others...

I'd love to do some bushcrafting but I'll never be an expert in it. I have to look at the designs and steels used. I can make use of several websites(retailers like KnifeCenter) to see what designs are employed and steels are used. Then I can use Knife Nerds to drill down in to what those steels can do.

I mostly buy for self defense, so there is no way other than a "pork man" or buying a side of beef and practice cutting and thrusting to see what different designs and steels achieve. I don't work for the CIA so my opportunities are at best a guess as to what works. I think that I'm in the ballpark, and what I buy will work.

I've taken a few years of Filipino martial arts, and I've been trained to cut. Now, you might think WTH this guy had to go get trained in cutting. Well, let me tell you, I did not think I needed all the drilling, but after being shown by GM Tony Somera of Bahala Na how to cut and thrust, I definitely know now better than 99% of the population.

You need to study all of it, then choose the right tool.

Just buying a design. Just buying a steel. That will NOT do. It is not enough to know how to make a sandwich out of cold cuts if you need to slaughter and butcher the cow first. You need to study all of it. Use all of the data, and learn on how to butcher to get the cuts you plan to eat.

I do not have the systems, machines, and knowledge that Larrin has. At best I could do what Pete does over at "Cedrick and Ada." No need to copy them. This is not a scientific endeavor for me.