Gtscotty wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 9:20 amThe fact that you see more liner locks offered in cheaper Spyderco's than more expensive models should probably be a clue to how the market largely views liner locks, as the budget lock option of choice. If I'm paying more, I'm usually looking for a better, safer lock, many companies are willing to deliver that on their higher end models including Spyderco. I've never had the safety and handling issues with comp locks that you seem to, but given your troubles it's probably a good idea to stick with other lock types.Wartstein wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:36 pmWell, since this discussion was initiated by talking about an "outdoor-Kapara" in the Kapara-thread, I guess it is not too off topic to reply once more:
- Currently Spyderco does not make many linerlocks in their mid- to higher end, "main" models (think PM2-, Endura-, Native family, Manix and so on) - if you want to have something "above the budget line" AND a not too "niche" model, there are really few Spyderco choices (but some of course)
- The discussion reminds me remotely on such about serrations, or other features, steels....: Just cause "everybody and their brother" makes or uses them, does not mean that Spyderco should not do THEIR take on it!
Take serrations; There are horrible serrated blades out there, but SPYDERCOS version of it and how they implement "teeth" is great!
As is for example also is their perfect Millie linerlock, but not so some linerlocks of other brands
- You put it perfectly and and thoughtfully when you said "when better options" [in your opinion] are avialable" : It is all just personal preference and depends on how, where... one uses folders. There is no "better option" over a linerlock generally (as there is no generally over a comp.lock!), it all depends.
And talking about an "outdoor-Kapara": I´d recommend to everyone who has the current Kapara (slick handle, rather "tiny" comp.lock") to really try and use it in harsh conditions or create such deliberately for a test: Make your fingers cold and wet or greasy, make the handle wet or even a bit muddy also, or wear thicker gloves, and work with the knife and operate the particular Kapara comp.lock multiple times: Will it work?: Yes. But it will most likely be rather awkward and not too safe (especially concerning dropping the knife) for many.
A GOOD linerlock though has things to offer that no other lock has, especially concerning how natural it is to use (the hand remains in a very natural position) and how easy it is to operate for example with gloves (actually there are not too few posts that say exactly these things about the Millie).
Furthermore a linerlock just feels nice in hand, for me almost like a chamfering where the fingers sit, while the comp.lock cutout tends to create a hot spot over time.
To be clear: ALL lock types have to "offer someting other locktypes don´t" as I said above about the linerlock, and I am not at all against the comp.lock! I actually love its ingenious design and like it a lot on knives like the Sage 5!
I just think the great linerlocks Spyderco makes often times get not a fair chance by being tested in "real world conditions" to find out their advantages.
Anyway, for MY preferences a grippy FRN, linerlock Kapara (sticking with S30V would be perfectly fine) could really become a tough contender for my beloved Enduras (though before that the Kapara would also have to get rid of the deep carry clip and go to shallower carry).
I really didn't want to get into another pointless back and forth with you, your mind seems to be made up on everything. I just didn't want your minority opinion about dumping the comp lock from the excellent Kapara in favor of a budget lock option to be the only one repeated in these kinds of threads, in case someone who makes those decisions is listening.
With all due respect, but this is an a bit weird reply, so I am not even sure you actually read my post beforehand? (Honestly!)
What you see as "pointless back and forth" is what we usually call "discussion" here.
I´d ask you to read my post (and my previous posts in this thread) once more, and I am quite sure you´ll see things differently:
- I gave - I think - valid reasons in a polite way for why a linerlock for me is better in certain scenarios (here: outdoor use), and certainly CAN be also for others. All based on extensive experiences with all the main locktypes.
- These opinions are not rarely (but of course not universally!) shared also by other experienced members on this forum (not by all of course):
a.) A linerlock is better to operate with gloves or cold, wet hands than a comp.lock for many (thus so many real knife users like the Millie linerlock in the outdoors)
b.) Especially the Kapara comp.lock has a particular small cutout and locktab, and the knife a slim, sleek handle, This makes it less easy to operate in harsher conditions
c.) The comp. lock cutout can create hotspots and is not necessarily ideally placed ergonomically speaking in real hard, prolongued use
Again: My opinion comes from real experience and is really not my opinion alone, and I doubt it is a "minority opinion" when it comes to linerlocks in outdoor use - at least you can´t tell if it is or not
(As said: Even Lance Clinton, very experienced knife user and designer of the Siren, stated he did not want a comp.lock on this knife cause it would be too easy to get accidently dropped)YOUR opinion might and will differ, but is not worth more or less than mine.
- We are talking specifically about an outdoor, "harsh condition" Kapara in this case. Here a linerlock has a good chance to be better operable than the particular Kapara comp.lock. I even suggested (see my previous post) how one could try this for themselves.
- Unlike you, I literally stated several times that of course NO lock is really "better" than another, but (quoting myself): "ALL lock types have to "offer something other locktypes don´t" .... , and I am not at all against the comp.lock! I actually love its ingenious design and like it a lot on knives like the Sage 5!"
I just think the great linerlocks Spyderco makes often times get not a fair chance by being tested in "real world conditions" to find out their advantages.
- Now you say "my mind seems to be made up".. no disrespect, but this is actually a bit funny coming from you who insists that "the comp.lock is a safer, better lock [period] and a "linerlock a budget lock option"... while on the other hand I clearly see the values of EACH locktype and that it depends on user and scenarion which one is "better". (There are also high end Spydies with linerlocks... Bradley and so on...) - you don´t even bring real reasons for that, and don´t react to the I think at least not silly ones I gave for the linerlock in an outdoor scenario.
Seems like YOUR mind is "made up" more than mine, and a discussion for you is only fine if people switch to your opinion..
- "The fact that you see more liner locks offered in cheaper Spyderco's than more expensive models should probably be a clue to how the market largely views liner locks, as the budget lock option of choice." - You are not even wrong on that one.
The market does view liner locks as the budget lock option by tendency,
To conclude from that though that a linerlock is "bad" or "worse" than lother lock types it pretty narrow minded:
- A linerlock is rather easy to make, so ALSO budget knives are made very often with a linerlock - and this leads to many not well made linerlocks out there
- This does by no means mean though that a GOOD linerlock is inferior. As I laid out in this thread it does have distinctive advantages, depending on the scenario.
- Also, what "the market" thinks is to a large part determined by what "influencers", "youtube" or people who don´t really use knives say:
"Linerlock: Outdated and bad, despite most of these folks will never have used a good linerlock knife like the Millie lets say in winter in the outdoors for a longer time
Comp.lock: Good, cause I can fidget in front of my camera... "
(I am vastly exaggerating of course, but you get my point)
- "I've never had the safety and handling issues with comp locks that you seem to, but given your troubles it's probably a good idea to stick with other lock types. "
I have no troubles and "handling issues" with comp.locks. (But perhaps YOU have such with linerlocks, since you find them that inferior generally?). But we are talking about the IDEAL outdoor Kapara here in every detail. That´s where for me a linerlock is just even safer in hand and easier to operate. Much like you might say: "I have no troubles to cut a loaf of bread with a Para 3, but a Millie is more ideal for that scenario.
/ Looking forward to more constructive discussions with you in the future!
