Poor experience with LC200N edge?

[Shramp]

Hello,

I am a new member. I've lurked for a while and have enjoyed the expertise and experience that members share on this board. I was curious if anyone had a similar experience with LC200N:

I recently bought a spydiechef new. I noticed that LC200N might be particularly poor in edge stability when I cut through about 8ft of moderately thick cardboard the other day. Because of the grain of the cardboard the blade didn't go completely straight through, it sort of turned a few degrees in one direction to match the grain of the material. I didn't think anything of it at the time but later when I looked about a third of an inch the tip of the blade I found that light reflected off of the edge, suggesting that it was either blunted or rolled or something. I'm new to sharpening but I used the fine sharpmaker stones at 40 degrees inclusive and a strop to set the edge better than new. I was happy with the polish I could get from the edge with my modest tools and technique.

But then today after I used the blade to cut through some paper as well as an onion I found what I believe to be a chip near the tip. It was shallow but it seemed more like a chip than a roll or simply blunting. It took a long time to regrind the edge with the medium sharpmaker stones (40 degrees inclusive again) and now it seems back to an okay place. I honed it and stropped it back but these two experiences have me concerned with both the edge stability and toughness of LC200N. I'm very careful with my blade, so much so that I can't actually imagine how I would be more careful to take care of the steel.

Perhaps I'm being anal about what my edge actually looks like, but it seems bizarre to me that I should have to grind down the edge after a week of cutting through some cheese, some fruits, paper, tape, and ~8ft of cardboard.

I was surprised because I've heard pretty good things about LC200N. Has anybody experienced this? Are there any techniques I can use while sharpening or during use that could help keep LC200N from prematurely dulling or chipping? I love using this knife and I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Thanks.

TL;DR: With a week of very light use my spydiechef in LC200N has rolled and chipped in minor but disconcerting ways. Any suggestions? Sharpening techniques? Recommended use? Heck, if anyone has alternative steels they would highly suggest, I'm all ears.

[Sumdumguy]

The initial edges are sometimes a bit weaker, for whatever reason. I'd say, keep using it, and let us know how it is in a few weeks or months after a few good sharpenings.

I've never rolled an edge on my Caribbean without smacking it into something metal.

[Shramp]

keep using it, and let us know how it is in a few weeks or months after a few good sharpenings.

I'll do that. Do you normally sharpen at an angle close to 40 inclusive?

[Kesson]

I had a similarly unimpressive intro to LC200N when I got my Serrated Caribbean. I carved into some fairly soft wood a bit and the edge folded over pretty significantly. I wasn't sure if it was the steel or the nature of a SE blade since it was my first in many years. After fixing it on the sharpmaker I've continued to use the knife quite a bit and have had less issues. It still dulls rather quickly compared to S30v but it's very easy to sharpen.

I have had less issues with my plain edge knives in LC200N. The Chef has cut a lot of cardboard and other things without issue but I have yet to really put it to any hard tasks. My Waterway has filleted some Tuna and Rockfish without issue.

[atv223]

Check out this thread on the chip

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78030&p=1213394#p1213394

[WRB]

I have the same dent on my Spydiechef. It was there brand new out of the box. My blade won’t hit the standoff even if I press it down hard so I figure it’ll sharpen out. Must happen at the factory somehow.

So yeah, I don’t think it’s an LC200N problem so much as it’s a Spydiechef problem.

[VooDooChild]

Check out this thread on the chip

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78030&p=1213394#p1213394

See mine has always had a spot up near the tip with slight edge damage. Its right over the standoff. But in the closed position I can look through the knife and see that there is room between the edge and standoff, also there is no blade lash. So I dont think it ever made contact with the standoff, but I dont know what else would do it. Maybe I did it cutting something and just dont remember. I think its just the curse of the Spydiechef.

OP. Lc200n is still all about corrosion resistance before anything else. I would say if you dont need extreme corrosion resistance, most people dont, then you may be better off with another steel.

Then again others really love lc200n as an edc steel.

Edit.
After reading that thread. My standoff does have a mark over to one side, so I guess I dropped it and thats what happened.

[Cambertree]

Hi Shramp,

Welcome!

Generally I’d avoid making conclusions about the edge quality of a knife until it’s been sharpened a few times at least. Because the edge apex area is very thin it can sometimes be adversely affected by heat from powered grinding equipment. I’m sure Spyderco take measures to reduce this phenomenon, but it’s still quite common on all factory knives. The Cutlery and Allied Trades Research Association (CATRA) in Sheffield found that the majority of factory edges they tested have issues with having been overheated right at the edge.

So sharpening away a little steel can often help with that odd behaviour. I resharpen all my knives when I get them.

Also learning a bit about the qualities of a steel type and how it actually matches with your needs can help too.

I wouldn’t say LC200N is a particularly strong steel. It’s fairly tough, and will tend to roll rather than chip when pushed past its limits. I don’t find it to be remarkably wear resistant, although I have ground my LC200N edges on the Caribbean and Waterway very thin - much thinner than the factory edge.

In my experience it behaves a little bit like the ‘simple’ stainlesses like AEB-L and 8Cr13MoV - with the added feature of being extremely stainless.

I think it tends to respond well to fairly frequent touch up sharpening and methods like ‘steeling’ the edge with ceramic rods and the like.

It takes a satisfying high level sharpness very easily, and I recommend keeping it there rather than letting it get very dull.

Also I recommend buying a loupe (a 10x triplet like the BelOMO offers a good image quality and field of view) and using it to frequently examine your edges while sharpening.

Often strange chipping behaviour can be related to burrs breaking off in use.

Sharpening the tip area in a separate operation to the rest of the edge using light pressure on the Sharpmaker flats can help. Don’t run the tip off the stones.

If I want more edge retention in PE LC200N, I’ll finish with a coarser edge, straight off the brown rods. There are also proponents of using an edge straight off the diamond or CBN stones.

Serrated LC200N has much more edge retention in CATRA testing than a plain edge configuration.

I like to use a couple of passes on a loaded strop to finish with.

Good luck, and I think you’ll experience some improvement as you sharpen away some more steel and develop your sharpening skills - at least that’s been my experience.

[Shramp]

Thanks for all the advice. This is very helpful info.

Sharpening the tip area in a separate operation to the rest of the edge using light pressure on the Sharpmaker flats can help. Don’t run the tip off the stones.

Can you describe what you mean a little bit, Cambertree? Like setting the flats up like a regular whetstone? I find that the top of the blade is relatively dull because I can't help but pull the blade off of the sharpmaker occasionally. I'd like to learn how to get a really crisp point. Thanks again.

[Shramp]

Check out this thread on the chip

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=78030&p=1213394#p1213394

That's super helpful, thanks. I think I see a spot on the standoff that the blade must have pinged off of at some point.

[Enactive]

Hello, Shramp and Welcome.

Just a brief note-- i would concur on the standoff as the likely culprit for the damage. While LC is no cardboard killer, 8 feet shouldn't do it in.

I would also second Cambertree's assessment and characterization of LC200N. It is not especially wear resistant nor strong, but it is tough--and easy to keep sharp. Most importantly it is nearly rust proof. The SpydieChef is a favorite and i subsequently bought and favor a PE and an SE Native Salt.

I like to just use the brown SharpMaker stones and can get my Chef and Native Salts treetopping hairs that way and i am not up to Cambertree's sharpening skill level.

[Shramp]

Thanks for all the responses. The standoff does seem to be the culprit in this case but I am glad to hear all the advice on LC200N in general. Overall, I really do like how easy it is to sharpen so I definitely won't give up on the steel quite yet!

[Cambertree]

Can you describe what you mean a little bit, Cambertree? Like setting the flats up like a regular whetstone? I find that the top of the blade is relatively dull because I can't help but pull the blade off of the sharpmaker occasionally. I'd like to learn how to get a really crisp point. Thanks again.

Sure. Sorry, I was about to head off to work when I posted, so I was in a bit of a hurry.

So I’m gonna assume you’ve watched the Sharpmaker video and are using a similar technique to what Sal recommends, which is going through a set of say, 20 passes per side on the corners of the triangle rods and then doing the same on the flat side of the rods.

The corners are good for repairing edges with chips or rolls, and they also tend to leave a more ‘aggressive’ feeling edge.

It’s hard to run right up to the tip of the knife when using the Sharpmaker corners without running off the rods, so you generally stop short of the tip.

As you’ve noted, when using the flat sides, it’s still easy to run the knife off the rods at the end of the pass, which will eventually round off the point of the blade. So if you still stop a little short of the end of the blade you don’t tend to have that problem.

Then if you position yourself so your head is a little bit behind the Sharpmaker, rather than right above it, you can see if you’re making consistent contact with the flat part of the rods, and just concentrate on the tip area. I find it helps to aim to have the tip of the knife no more than about halfway across the flats by the time you get to the bottom of each stroke.

Once you’ve cleaned up the edge and are happy with the sharpness level, you can minimise the burr with this technique: use ten full passes from heel to tip on one side, then ten on the other, then 5 and 5, 4:4, 3:3, 2:2 and then 1 alternating on each side with super light pressure for another 10 passes.

(There’s many ways to minimise the burr, but this is just a sequence which is easy to remember to finish your sharpening with.)

As you get progressively lighter with your pressure, you can check this by removing your support hand from the Sharpmaker. Your pressure should be light enough that the setup doesn’t move.

I never really use the rods laid flat like a benchstone. It’s a nice feature, but I already have a bunch of benchstones, so I don’t really need to.

I hope that made sense. :)

Here’s a useful video by forum member Surfingringo with some of his own Sharpmaker tips:

https://youtu.be/DI8lTj-F8gA

And another which you might find interesting on sharpening his LC200N Caribbean:

https://youtu.be/DGnOnAtwSNw

[Shramp]

Thanks, Cambertree. I'll give that a shot.

[Shramp]

Do people generally hold a 40 degree inclusive angle or is it worthwhile to reprofile to 30 degree inclusive?

[Cambertree]

Thanks, Cambertree. I'll give that a shot.

No worries. :)

Do people generally hold a 40 degree inclusive angle or is it worthwhile to reprofile to 30 degree inclusive?

40 degrees inclusive is ok for durability and will generally give quick results.

30 inclusive will give better edge retention and ‘cutting feel’ IMHO.

It also depends on the steel. Generally I’ll thin out my knives at around 22-24 degrees inclusive on benchstones and then apply a microbevel with the Sharpmaker for durability and easy and quick resharpening.

Higher carbide steels like S90V, Maxamet and S110V get a 40 degree inclusive microbevel.

LC200N has a lower relative carbide/nitride volume, so it can take a thinner, more acute edge than those steels.

I went about 22 degrees inclusive, and a 30 inclusive Sharpmaker microbevel on the Caribbean and Waterway.

The way you sharpen and the angle you sharpen at generally has a much stronger bearing on knife performance than the type of steel.

Sharpen in a way that plays to the strengths of the steel.

An older pic of my Caribbean after I resharpened it:

[Shramp]

I'll give thinner grinds a try once I get a bit more confident in my technique.

Thanks for the help, all!

[Cambertree]

No worries Daniel, I think that’s a wise approach.

Learning how to sharpen well is a skill that will increase your enjoyment of all your knives.

LC200N is actually a fine steel to practice with.

Good luck, and let us know how your experience with your Spydiechef progresses. :) :spyder:

[Mike Slayer]

Like other’s have said the spot near the tip on the Spydiechef is from the stand-off. Both mine have this due to taking a blow to the side and hitting the radius portion of the stand-off. I contacted Spyderco to let them know about the possible issue. They wanted me to send my Spydiechef in but both mine are special to me and I don’t mind it all that much. I would prefer it not have the issue but it is what it is. Also I changed the edge angle to 30-32 degrees inclusive. It slices like a Japanese sushi knife.

[sal]

Hi Shramp,

Welcome to our forum.

sal