I do not like LC200N *rant*

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ladybug93
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#21

Post by ladybug93 »

most people that are saying lc200n everything are not saying to replace all other steels with lc200n. we just want to see more models offered in salt versions with lc200n. there was talk at one point to have the seki salts offered in ffg lc200n as opposed to hollow grinds. there was also talk of lc200n spreading through the golden lineup as production offerings. i think people just want to see that.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#22

Post by Bill1170 »

Toughness in a hard stainless blade is relatively rare when coupled with decent edge retention. Toughness has for many knife enthusiasts been under-valued in my opinion. It permits lower edge angles that perform very well, with reduced risk of catastrophic damage. This is very valuable for me.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#23

Post by David R »

Bill1170 wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 11:29 pm
Toughness in a hard stainless blade is relatively rare when coupled with decent edge retention. Toughness has for many knife enthusiasts been under-valued in my opinion. It permits lower edge angles that perform very well, with reduced risk of catastrophic damage. This is very valuable for me.
Varies by the person and application, of course. But I agree on toughness. All things being equal, I will trade a little edge retention for toughness. Of course I still have Maxamet and K390 folders, so maybe I wouldn't.

For the OP, if your primary concern is edge retention, of course LC200N is not going to be a great steel for you. It's more than adequate for me (in the Cru-wear, XHP, CPM 154 range). I wouldn't trade it as a fishing knife for something with better edge retention. The rust resistance is too valuable for me.
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tonijedi
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#24

Post by tonijedi »

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 10:03 pm
James Y wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:33 pm
I’ve read posts on BF by some people who favor super edge-holding steels, who say they touch up their knives after each day of use, because they’re afraid of losing the edge and having a difficult time restoring it. What’s the difference between that and using a so-called “lesser” steel that may not hold an edge as long, but takes a screaming sharp edge, holds it a decent amount of time, and is easy to resharpen?

Jim



This is literally what I used to do. You'll still hear me making the same suggestions too, "just don't let it get dull and it won't be hard to sharpen". A big part of that is having the right sharpening media to cut those types of steel but even with them I'd be lying if I said sharpening S110V is just as easy as LC200N. That's not even taking into consideration the chore of fixing edge damage or how much work it takes to reprofile a bevel. On one hand it may seem that I've gotten lazy, but the reality is I spend far less time sharpening now than I did with those super edge retention steels so for me they have the opposite effect and turn sharpening into a chore. I'm also far more willing to use my knife hard because I don't fear dulling or damaging the edge as much since it's a breeze to being it back.
True story.
Besides, easier steels to sharpen can be field sharpened decently whereas a "high edge retention" steel will give you trouble.
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emanuel
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#25

Post by emanuel »

Rinzler wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:50 pm
I've never used a pocket knife in the kitchen - that's what kitchen knives are for. I have and do use pocket knives for food outside of the kitchen, which usually means I wipe off the blade and put it back in my pocket. I'm a fan of LC200N and am not a fan of S30V. While I would love a Kapara in LC200N, I'll take a Kapara in any steel as long as it's not S30V or VG10. I'd be happy with that S110V in your avatar as an option for the Kapara...

3/10 on the antiLC-Kapara rant for failing to convince me. :D
Yea my bad, I shouldn't have said "kitchen", but more like fine cutting tasks/food processing, not by my own uses, but I can see from the feel and blade geometry why people see it being a reasonable performer in that regard. I too use just two knives in the kitchen, a 240mm super blue Yoshihiro gyuto and a cheapo paring knife. My folders are usually EDC and none is a "hard use" knife. I have fixed blades for real work like the majority of ppl on here too I believe (manix 2 in maxamet is the exception to the rule).

For people questioning if I like or hate the Waterway in lc200n, I do like it and I feel the steel is great for what the knife is advertised to do: a fixed blade salt knife in a plain edge blade style. If you want corrosion proof and low cost, yes Lc200n is the way to go no doubt about it! What I don't like is the push for this steel to be used in knives for which their own design and uses doesn't warrant such lvl of corrosion resistance. Sure, the steel is tough, easy to sharpen, low carbide volume, it should be great at low angles too right? Wrong, this thing rolls if going under 20dps (low max hardness?), so why would I want this in my, I dunno, Manix 2/Kapara, when AEB-L or similar hardened to 62 not only is just as tough, but can take 12-13 dps, doesn't roll and its just as easy to touch up? I agree variety in steels is great, this is what attracted me to Spyderco, but I feel like pushing so hard for this average performing steel, it just pushes out or delays other more interesting options that we could experience.

And yes I too would like a Kapara in s110v/s90v, or some high hardness/low carbide steels that can handle lower edge angles with no fear :D
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#26

Post by Mike Slayer »

Before I tried LC200N I tried H1. I didn’t care for the low edge retention H1 had. Basically when I would get away or out of the water my Military would go back in my pocket. I then discovered LC200N in the Spydiechef. At this point my fixed blades were in CPM-3v and my Military was S30v. After using LC200N in the Spydiechef for awhile I didn’t notice that big of a difference between edge retention on LC200N, 3v and S30v. It wasn’t a big enough difference to bother me. What I did notice was better edge stability, toughness over S30v and not having to worry about rust like I did on my 3v blades. In all honesty 3v is pretty good for a tool steel when it comes to rust resistance. Also LC200N is easier to sharpen than both S30V and CPM-3v. Steels like O1, A2, 1095, 5160, 52100 others held a decent edge for year’s. If I remember correctly LC200N has better edge retention than they do. For me LC200N has enough edge retention, toughness, edge stability (15dps on my Spydiechef and not one sign or rolling) and corrosion resistance in daily use. My other Spydiechef Is more like 13dps and it holds up. Like others have pointed out they like myself touch up our edges daily so on a steel like LC200N it means my edge on the Spydiechef is always ready. I am not going to address the OP negativity because he doesn’t like one of my favorite steels. If it doesn’t have enough edge retention for him then it doesn’t. He knows what he needs and what he doesn’t. What he needs doesn’t affect me or my needs in the slightest or will it ever. Would I like to see every Spyderco model have a rust proof Salt LC200N option? **** yeah I would. Is it going to happen of course not but I am perfectly happy with my Spydiechef. I hope to be perfectly happy with a waterway when I can afford it. I think this push for more LC200N is more of a wish then it actually happening. LC200N shouldn’t be used on a design unless it made since and the entire design was rust proof. AEB-L would be a good steel to see more of since it’s my preferred stainless steel behind LC200N.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#27

Post by cycleguy »

LC200N ... would anyone go as far to dare say it is like a corrosion resistant 3V? :cool:

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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#28

Post by JRinFL »

Ignoring excellent corrosion resistance, what does LC200N offer over AEB-L or 14c28n? Outside of high corrosion environments, I think there are other options, some of which would lower costs. If you are touching up daily, why not choose a steel that saves you money as well?
Larrin’s selection of 14c28n as the top budget steel seems especially appropriate.
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shunsui
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#29

Post by shunsui »

I'd love to see the Siren in other sprint steels for EDC. But until then it's still in my pocket everyday. It's not the steel, it's the ergos.

I keep a Cruwear Para2 on my desk next to the trackball. I let that handle the day to day things and save the edge on the Siren for when I need it on the road.

Put my Waterway in the kitchen. Another fine knife. The fact that they never rust, just an added bonus.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#30

Post by Surfingringo »

TomAiello wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 8:00 pm


....I also agree that the Waterway (I own one) would be a _fantastic_ knife if it were sprinted (or just made in a permanent variant) in another steel for general outdoors use. I recall their being an entire thread about that idea, and I think I proposed K390 at that time. I still think K390 in the Waterway design would be amazing, and I'd carry/use it a lot more that way, given that I am not a saltwater adventurer and live roughly a thousand mile drive (more like 500 miles as the crow flies) from the ocean.

I don't think LC200N is a bad steel at all. It's just a very specific steel for very specific applications. It makes a ton of sense in those applications, and a little less sense in other applications (or as a general purpose EDC steel).

Ever since the first prototype of the Waterway it was my intention to have a tool steel version made for myself. I need to talk with Chad Kelly and have him make me one in something like k390, or maybe even cruwear or 3v...or 4v. So many options.

I love lc200n too (obviously). Horses for courses.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#31

Post by Evil D »

JRinFL wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:46 am
Ignoring excellent corrosion resistance, what does LC200N offer over AEB-L or 14c28n? Outside of high corrosion environments, I think there are other options, some of which would lower costs. If you are touching up daily, why not choose a steel that saves you money as well?
Larrin’s selection of 14c28n as the top budget steel seems especially appropriate.



I think part of the problem may be arguing against steels that aren't even an option. Personally when I suggest knives in certain steels it's because I think they're realistic. For example, asking for a LC200N Shaman seems realistic since they're currently working with the steel and have it in Golden for other models. I would LOVE to try AEB-L in a FFG/SE format, but since they've only done one model in that steel and there's no sign of more on the horizon, it seems less likely to happen. In most cases I'm totally ok with just very very good corrosion resistance, it's just another category the same as edge retention that I'm willing to give up a bit if it means a better average of other qualities. I suspect AEB-L might just be my dream steel when it comes to SE so I'm 100% on board with any model being offered in it, especially if there's also a chance for a SE version.

I guess part of my problem with this whole subject is the SE part. What I've seen from LC's edge holding abilities seems pretty dang amazing and absolutely the opposite of what the OP is suggesting, and any time steel variants of models are suggested I'm thinking about them in SE form.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#32

Post by Xplorer »

Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm

Ever since the first prototype of the Waterway it was my intention to have a tool steel version made for myself. I need to talk with Chad Kelly and have him make me one in something like k390, or maybe even cruwear or 3v...or 4v. So many options.

I love lc200n too (obviously). Horses for courses.
LOL!! As I was reading through this thread I was literally thinking.." I think I want to make a CruWear Waterway" and then I read your post and had to laugh. If you want to get that one done, let's discuss the steel and the handle and I'll get started. :)

CK
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#33

Post by ykspydiefan »

I'm really partial to the Waterway and LC200N. It eats fish and poops salt, as advertised.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#34

Post by Enactive »

Xplorer wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:10 pm
Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm

Ever since the first prototype of the Waterway it was my intention to have a tool steel version made for myself. I need to talk with Chad Kelly and have him make me one in something like k390, or maybe even cruwear or 3v...or 4v. So many options.

I love lc200n too (obviously). Horses for courses.
LOL!! As I was reading through this thread I was literally thinking.." I think I want to make a CruWear Waterway" and then I read your post and had to laugh. If you want to get that one done, let's discuss the steel and the handle and I'll get started. :)

CK
Love it! The rant thread turns productive.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#35

Post by Trinity300 »

emanuel wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:09 pm
I mean there are so many cheaper and even better stainless steels.
LC200N is very cheap. See below:
Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 16, 2020 6:26 pm
LC200N - $9.73/in³
S30V - $11.23/in³
M4 - $12.08/in³
S90V - $14.51/in³
Elmax - $14.70/in³
20CV - $15.30/in³
Maxamet - $21.16/in³
M390 - $26.44/in³
Vanax - $36.30/in³
emanuel wrote:
Sat Jun 20, 2020 3:09 pm
Corrosion resistance is the last thing that matters in the kitchen, a place where most ppl instantly wash and dry their knives once done (or a few hours later for a Kapara, when s30v is still corrosion resistant enough to not have any issues), there's a reason why carbon steel japanese knives are so popular. For most ppl, corrosion isn't a problem in the kitchen.
The pitting on my chef knife says otherwise. If I can get a sharp edge that does not dull quickly AND stainless properties, I will take both.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#36

Post by wrdwrght »

Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:10 pm
The pitting on my chef knife says otherwise.
Can you supply some pics?
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#37

Post by Surfingringo »

Xplorer wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:10 pm
Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm

Ever since the first prototype of the Waterway it was my intention to have a tool steel version made for myself. I need to talk with Chad Kelly and have him make me one in something like k390, or maybe even cruwear or 3v...or 4v. So many options.

I love lc200n too (obviously). Horses for courses.
LOL!! As I was reading through this thread I was literally thinking.." I think I want to make a CruWear Waterway" and then I read your post and had to laugh. If you want to get that one done, let's discuss the steel and the handle and I'll get started. :)

CK
Man, as much as i want one, I think I need a new fillet knife more. The 7.5” you made me of my fillet design (in Vanax) is still going strong but getting a little thick behind the edge from sooo much use and sharpening. I’m working on a 5.5” model too that might be what I’ll try to get you to do next.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#38

Post by skeeg11 »

Surfingringo wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:13 am
Xplorer wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:10 pm
Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm

Ever since the first prototype of the Waterway it was my intention to have a tool steel version made for myself. I need to talk with Chad Kelly and have him make me one in something like k390, or maybe even cruwear or 3v...or 4v. So many options.

I love lc200n too (obviously). Horses for courses.
LOL!! As I was reading through this thread I was literally thinking.." I think I want to make a CruWear Waterway" and then I read your post and had to laugh. If you want to get that one done, let's discuss the steel and the handle and I'll get started. :)



CK
Man, as much as i want one, I think I need a new fillet knife more. The 7.5” you made me of my fillet design (in Vanax) is still going strong but getting a little thick behind the edge from sooo much use and sharpening. I’m working on a 5.5” model too that might be what I’ll try to get you to do next.
I admire how creative and busy you guys are, but please find some time to convince the powers that be that there is a hole in the market for a serrated Siren in LC200N.

Thanks!
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#39

Post by Trinity300 »

wrdwrght wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:48 pm
Trinity300 wrote:
Tue Jun 23, 2020 2:10 pm
The pitting on my chef knife says otherwise.
Can you supply some pics?
To clarify it is a MAC Pro, not a SpydieChef, if that’s what you were thinking.
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Re: I do not like LC200N *rant*

#40

Post by Surfingringo »

skeeg11 wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:51 am
Surfingringo wrote:
Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:13 am
Xplorer wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 7:10 pm
Surfingringo wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:54 pm

Ever since the first prototype of the Waterway it was my intention to have a tool steel version made for myself. I need to talk with Chad Kelly and have him make me one in something like k390, or maybe even cruwear or 3v...or 4v. So many options.

I love lc200n too (obviously). Horses for courses.
LOL!! As I was reading through this thread I was literally thinking.." I think I want to make a CruWear Waterway" and then I read your post and had to laugh. If you want to get that one done, let's discuss the steel and the handle and I'll get started. :)



CK
Man, as much as i want one, I think I need a new fillet knife more. The 7.5” you made me of my fillet design (in Vanax) is still going strong but getting a little thick behind the edge from sooo much use and sharpening. I’m working on a 5.5” model too that might be what I’ll try to get you to do next.
I admire how creative and busy you guys are, but please find some time to convince the powers that be that there is a hole in the market for a serrated Siren in LC200N.

Thanks!
I would love one personally. I those types of decisions usually depend on how the first version sells. If sales are strong enough then other iterations/steels/colors might be possible? Who knows...those decisions are WAY above my pay grade. :)
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