Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

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Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:36 pm

I was curious about why there are two completely different serration patterns on the Wharnie Delica as shown below...

Image

Image

...I received one today that looks like the second image. Does anyone know why the two patterns? Is it a CQI thing? Is one better than the other? I am relatively new to the whole SE world, and am just wondering any specifics on the differences in general I guess. TIA! :D

Cheers,

John

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby tbdoc4kids » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:37 pm

What are the date codes for each?

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:51 pm

I only have the one I got today...

Image

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JRinFL » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:42 pm

JMM wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 6:36 pm
I was curious about why there are two completely different serration patterns on the Wharnie Delica as shown below...

Image

Image

...I received one today that looks like the second image. Does anyone know why the two patterns? Is it a CQI thing? Is one better than the other? I am relatively new to the whole SE world, and am just wondering any specifics on the differences in general I guess. TIA! :D

Cheers,

John
I seem to remember someone saying the early pictures are often of pre-production models. I’m guessing this is the case here.
It was also discussed that the wheel used to create the serrations wears during use so there is always some variation in serrated edges over the lifetime of the sharpening wheel. Those with more knowledge will comment soon, I’m sure.
Used to be JR in CT with a much earlier join date. :rolleyes: :spyder: Native in 440v was my gateway Spyderco! :spyder: Wharnie for the whin! Friends call me Jim. As do my foes.

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby Evil D » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:52 pm

The first pic may just be a rendering of pre production. I'd be interested in seeing how the serrations you got compare to other SE blades, because those look to be significantly wider than usual, which really has my attention because I've been asking for wider serrations.

Another thing of note is grinding stone wear. Apparently over time serration patterns will change as the wheel wears, so over the course of X amount of knives being ground, the first and last knives from a batch may have differences in the pattern from grinding stone wear.
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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:57 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:52 pm
The first pic may just be a rendering of pre production. I'd be interested in seeing how the serrations you got compare to other SE blades, because those look to be significantly wider than usual, which really has my attention because I've been asking for wider serrations.

Another thing of note is grinding stone wear. Apparently over time serration patterns will change as the wheel wears, so over the course of X amount of knives being ground, the first and last knives from a batch may have differences in the pattern from grinding stone wear.
If the first image is a pre-production 'stock' photo, it's being used a ton, I'd say 75% of the pics on ebay show the serration pattern of the first pic. Based on your knowledge & experience with serrations, which I'd wager outstrips mine by about 4 billion percent, what would you think the real world difference would be between the two serration patterns?

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby Evil D » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:13 pm

JMM wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:57 pm
Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:52 pm
The first pic may just be a rendering of pre production. I'd be interested in seeing how the serrations you got compare to other SE blades, because those look to be significantly wider than usual, which really has my attention because I've been asking for wider serrations.

Another thing of note is grinding stone wear. Apparently over time serration patterns will change as the wheel wears, so over the course of X amount of knives being ground, the first and last knives from a batch may have differences in the pattern from grinding stone wear.
If the first image is a pre-production 'stock' photo, it's being used a ton, I'd say 75% of the pics on ebay show the serration pattern of the first pic. Based on your knowledge & experience with serrations, which I'd wager outstrips mine by about 4 billion percent, what would you think the real world difference would be between the two serration patterns?


I wouldn't put much stock in what eBay is using. If Spyderco originated that pic, then it's "official" and people are just using their image. It's a fair thing to note though, Spyderco may want to look into updating the pic with one that better represents the actual edge being sold.


My experience is that wider/shallower serrations (think "less hook-ish") tend to slice better and snag less. I have always wondered how serrations would perform if the small serrations were maybe twice as wide and the large serrations were maybe 50% wider. The small serrations seem to be the most difficult to sharpen, so making them all wider seems like they'd be a lot easier to sharpen. The question is (and a question I suspect Sal has answered through testing), do they start to lose their effectiveness as they become wider? In other words do they cut less aggressively with fewer teeth and scallops over a given blade length? I know Sal mentioned some time ago that they tested different patterns and found the pattern they use to be the most effective.


Anyway to answer your question a bit less convoluted, I would assume the knife you got is going to slice way better than the stock photo and I'd prefer it. In fact I'm gonna be looking into this harder to see if maybe it really is some CQI in their serration pattern because it looks really wide to me.


You may wanna check this thread out if you haven't.
viewtopic.php?t=84985#p1364190
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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby Evil D » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:21 pm

This pic is from a thread here on the forum (though the link is broken, it belongs to Reject). You can see even these two models which are made in the same factory have two different width patterns. The Delica does look more like what you have though.

Image


The large scallops are definitely wider on the Delica than the Endura. The more I look at the stock photo the more I'm convinced it's just an edited pic...the lighting on each scallop is identical, and most patterns these days start and end with large scallops.
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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:32 pm

Here's a comparison pic to a Byrd Hawkbill & Lil' Matriarch...

Image

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:39 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 8:13 pm
JMM wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:57 pm
Evil D wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 7:52 pm
The first pic may just be a rendering of pre production. I'd be interested in seeing how the serrations you got compare to other SE blades, because those look to be significantly wider than usual, which really has my attention because I've been asking for wider serrations.

Another thing of note is grinding stone wear. Apparently over time serration patterns will change as the wheel wears, so over the course of X amount of knives being ground, the first and last knives from a batch may have differences in the pattern from grinding stone wear.
If the first image is a pre-production 'stock' photo, it's being used a ton, I'd say 75% of the pics on ebay show the serration pattern of the first pic. Based on your knowledge & experience with serrations, which I'd wager outstrips mine by about 4 billion percent, what would you think the real world difference would be between the two serration patterns?


I wouldn't put much stock in what eBay is using. If Spyderco originated that pic, then it's "official" and people are just using their image. It's a fair thing to note though, Spyderco may want to look into updating the pic with one that better represents the actual edge being sold.


My experience is that wider/shallower serrations (think "less hook-ish") tend to slice better and snag less. I have always wondered how serrations would perform if the small serrations were maybe twice as wide and the large serrations were maybe 50% wider. The small serrations seem to be the most difficult to sharpen, so making them all wider seems like they'd be a lot easier to sharpen. The question is (and a question I suspect Sal has answered through testing), do they start to lose their effectiveness as they become wider? In other words do they cut less aggressively with fewer teeth and scallops over a given blade length? I know Sal mentioned some time ago that they tested different patterns and found the pattern they use to be the most effective.


Anyway to answer your question a bit less convoluted, I would assume the knife you got is going to slice way better than the stock photo and I'd prefer it. In fact I'm gonna be looking into this harder to see if maybe it really is some CQI in their serration pattern because it looks really wide to me.


You may wanna check this thread out if you haven't.
viewtopic.php?t=84985#p1364190
First, thank you for your verbose reply, I super appreciate it as I am very new to the world of SE knives, and the more I have, and the more I learn, and the more I use, the more I want, why the he11 didn't someone tell me this years ago! :p ;)

It's not just ebay using that pic though, a bunch of retailers that we all know and love (and use) are using that first pic for their sites... so for sure it that's not what's being sold it's worth drawing attention to...

I posted a pic below showing my new Wharnie Delica with a Byrd Hawkbill & a Lil' Matriarch for reference... HTH

Cheers,

John

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:27 pm

I'd like to throw out one more related question... as I mentioned, I'm quite new to the whole serrated world of knives, and so far I have the three shown above along with the DLC S30V SE Shaman, and a CE TiCN Endura4 LW... so far I think the Lil' Matriarch is my favourite, but I haven't really used my new SE Wharnie yet. What would be some suggestions from those "in the know" for other small to mid sized SE Spydies? I typically carry a Manix or Shaman (PE) and carry a serrated knife as my secondary EDC... what should I try out next? I REALLY like the Lil' Matriarch, I have the PE version OTW I like it so much... TIA!

Cheers,

John

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby Evil D » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:18 am

JMM wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:27 pm
I'd like to throw out one more related question... as I mentioned, I'm quite new to the whole serrated world of knives, and so far I have the three shown above along with the DLC S30V SE Shaman, and a CE TiCN Endura4 LW... so far I think the Lil' Matriarch is my favourite, but I haven't really used my new SE Wharnie yet. What would be some suggestions from those "in the know" for other small to mid sized SE Spydies? I typically carry a Manix or Shaman (PE) and carry a serrated knife as my secondary EDC... what should I try out next? I REALLY like the Lil' Matriarch, I have the PE version OTW I like it so much... TIA!

Cheers,

John



I still think one of the hands down best SE options is the Dragonfly Salt. It's relatively cheap, it weighs practically nothing, has great ergonomics, and with serrations it's a strong cutting knife in a fire cracker size. One of my biggest complaints with a lot of SE models (and particularly Salts) is the hollow/saber grind. Those grinds are great for cutting certain things and not so great for cutting other things so overall I really prefer a thinner full flat grind because I think they're better all around performers. Despite that, the Dragonfly Salt has a higher and thinner hollow grind than any of the other Salts I've used and it performs (slices) quite well. It's the first knife I recommend to anyone who wants to experiment with SE because it's the least expensive yet best performing option.

Besides that, my suggestions start to get a good bit more expensive. I think I'm probably the Caribbean fanboy of the forum at this point, since I practically can't make a post without mentioning it. Between the steel, the blade grind, the ergonomics, it's just a serious performing knife that keeps impressing me the more I use it. Some people hate the bumble bee scale colors, but they're easy enough to dye.

I am curious about the SE Tenacious though. I haven't tried one yet but it seems like an inexpensive alternative to the Caribbean (or rather, the Caribbean became a more expensive version of the Tenacious since the Tenacious was first). It has very similar ergonomics, similar blade shape, same full flat grind, but a different lock. It's also like 1/4 the price of a Caribbean, so it's another good option for those who want a cheap way to dip their toes in the water. I'm mostly curious how the steel performs in SE so I may end up buying one myself eventually.
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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby elena86 » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:38 am

Maybe this helps. I own three and the scallops are identical on all three

Image
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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby sal » Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:14 am

Hi John,

We generally like to start and end with a large serration. But in reality, no two serrations are identical. Serrations are ground one blade at a time with a formed wheel. The wheel is formed with diamonds. Each time a serration is formed, there is a little wear on the wheel. Some steels can take 20+ applications and then the wheel needs to be reformed. Some steels like K390 need to be reformed after 3 applications.

In my opinion, a serration cuts well when new, especially in "push cuts", but the best performance will come from sharpening a serration on our Sharpmaker as demonstrated by the video.

sal.

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby curlyhairedboy » Sat Jun 13, 2020 11:12 am

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:18 am
JMM wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:27 pm
I'd like to throw out one more related question... as I mentioned, I'm quite new to the whole serrated world of knives, and so far I have the three shown above along with the DLC S30V SE Shaman, and a CE TiCN Endura4 LW... so far I think the Lil' Matriarch is my favourite, but I haven't really used my new SE Wharnie yet. What would be some suggestions from those "in the know" for other small to mid sized SE Spydies? I typically carry a Manix or Shaman (PE) and carry a serrated knife as my secondary EDC... what should I try out next? I REALLY like the Lil' Matriarch, I have the PE version OTW I like it so much... TIA!

Cheers,

John



I still think one of the hands down best SE options is the Dragonfly Salt. It's relatively cheap, it weighs practically nothing, has great ergonomics, and with serrations it's a strong cutting knife in a fire cracker size. One of my biggest complaints with a lot of SE models (and particularly Salts) is the hollow/saber grind. Those grinds are great for cutting certain things and not so great for cutting other things so overall I really prefer a thinner full flat grind because I think they're better all around performers. Despite that, the Dragonfly Salt has a higher and thinner hollow grind than any of the other Salts I've used and it performs (slices) quite well. It's the first knife I recommend to anyone who wants to experiment with SE because it's the least expensive yet best performing option.

Besides that, my suggestions start to get a good bit more expensive. I think I'm probably the Caribbean fanboy of the forum at this point, since I practically can't make a post without mentioning it. Between the steel, the blade grind, the ergonomics, it's just a serious performing knife that keeps impressing me the more I use it. Some people hate the bumble bee scale colors, but they're easy enough to dye.

I am curious about the SE Tenacious though. I haven't tried one yet but it seems like an inexpensive alternative to the Caribbean (or rather, the Caribbean became a more expensive version of the Tenacious since the Tenacious was first). It has very similar ergonomics, similar blade shape, same full flat grind, but a different lock. It's also like 1/4 the price of a Caribbean, so it's another good option for those who want a cheap way to dip their toes in the water. I'm mostly curious how the steel performs in SE so I may end up buying one myself eventually.
As someone who owns a "Serratious", the performance difference is significant. Handed it to a buddy to try on cardboard, then he tried the same cut with his favorite plain edge. Easily 50% slower.
EDC Rotation: PITS, Shaman, CF S90v Shaman, Ikuchi, Amalgam, CruCarta Shaman, DLC Lil Native, Sage 5 LW, 4V Shaman, Watu, Rex 45 Shaman, Rex 45 Lil Native, Caribbean Sheepsfoot CQI, Tanto PM2, Serrated Shaman
Always in Pocket: Hawkbill Dragonfly 2 H1
Fixed Blades: Proficient, Junction, Waterway
Special and Sentimental: Southard, Smallfly G10, Squarehead LW, Ouroboros, Calendar Para 3 LW, 40th Anniversary Native, Calendar Watu
Would like to own again: Currently N/A!
Wishlist: Smallfly 2, CQI SpyderEdge Caribbean Sheepsfoot, Shaman Sprints!

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:10 pm

sal wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:14 am
Hi John,

We generally like to start and end with a large serration. But in reality, no two serrations are identical. Serrations are ground one blade at a time with a formed wheel. The wheel is formed with diamonds. Each time a serration is formed, there is a little wear on the wheel. Some steels can take 20+ applications and then the wheel needs to be reformed. Some steels like K390 need to be reformed after 3 applications.

In my opinion, a serration cuts well when new, especially in "push cuts", but the best performance will come from sharpening a serration on our Sharpmaker as demonstrated by the video.

sal.
Thank you Sal, that's super helpful in understanding the process... I am curious though, is the serration pattern shown in the very first image of the thread a past or present production model, or is the second image the only serration pattern available (which is what I received yesterday)?

Cheers,

John

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby James Y » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:12 pm

I’m sure that the second serration pattern is the actual production model. I actually prefer more space between serration groupings, with fewer total serrations, rather than having more serrations. I find for my uses, it cuts better.

Although I don’t have a Wharncliffe Delica, I do have a Salt 2 Wharncliffe (which is essentially the same as the Wharncliffe Delica, except hollow saber ground instead of FFG), and the serration groupings are the same as in the second example (a total of 12 “teeth).

Jim

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JD Spydo » Sat Jun 13, 2020 1:54 pm

Throughout the years I've seen so many minor variations of serration patterns on Spyderco blades. Now there is a completely different serration pattern on some of the Spyderco kitchen knives especially on the K-04 & K-05 models which both have a type of rounded/wavy type of serration pattern. I've wished for some time that we could get a fixed blade outdoor model with those types of serrations rather than the standard serrations you see on most of their folders.

Also I've seen some minor but noticeable serration pattern differences in Japan made versus GOLDEN, CO USA made units. I've noticed for some time that the serration patterns from GOLDEN, CO made folders have serrations that are not as needle like and spikey as the ones on many Japan made Spyders are.

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby sal » Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:57 pm

JMM wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 12:10 pm
sal wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 10:14 am
Hi John,

We generally like to start and end with a large serration. But in reality, no two serrations are identical. Serrations are ground one blade at a time with a formed wheel. The wheel is formed with diamonds. Each time a serration is formed, there is a little wear on the wheel. Some steels can take 20+ applications and then the wheel needs to be reformed. Some steels like K390 need to be reformed after 3 applications.

In my opinion, a serration cuts well when new, especially in "push cuts", but the best performance will come from sharpening a serration on our Sharpmaker as demonstrated by the video.

sal.
Thank you Sal, that's super helpful in understanding the process... I am curious though, is the serration pattern shown in the very first image of the thread a past or present production model, or is the second image the only serration pattern available (which is what I received yesterday)?

Cheers,

John
Hi John,

Hard to tell in pics. I would need to have them in my hand with magnification. What's most important is the performance and for that I rely on my sharpmaker. We've been making serrated knives for 4o years and I think we do a pretty good job in the making and maintaining them.

sal

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Re: Different Serration Patterns on Wharncliffe Delica4 LW - (C11FSWCBK)

Postby JMM » Sun Jun 14, 2020 11:45 am

Evil D wrote:
Sat Jun 13, 2020 6:18 am
JMM wrote:
Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:27 pm
I'd like to throw out one more related question... as I mentioned, I'm quite new to the whole serrated world of knives, and so far I have the three shown above along with the DLC S30V SE Shaman, and a CE TiCN Endura4 LW... so far I think the Lil' Matriarch is my favourite, but I haven't really used my new SE Wharnie yet. What would be some suggestions from those "in the know" for other small to mid sized SE Spydies? I typically carry a Manix or Shaman (PE) and carry a serrated knife as my secondary EDC... what should I try out next? I REALLY like the Lil' Matriarch, I have the PE version OTW I like it so much... TIA!

Cheers,

John



I still think one of the hands down best SE options is the Dragonfly Salt. It's relatively cheap, it weighs practically nothing, has great ergonomics, and with serrations it's a strong cutting knife in a fire cracker size. One of my biggest complaints with a lot of SE models (and particularly Salts) is the hollow/saber grind. Those grinds are great for cutting certain things and not so great for cutting other things so overall I really prefer a thinner full flat grind because I think they're better all around performers. Despite that, the Dragonfly Salt has a higher and thinner hollow grind than any of the other Salts I've used and it performs (slices) quite well. It's the first knife I recommend to anyone who wants to experiment with SE because it's the least expensive yet best performing option.

Besides that, my suggestions start to get a good bit more expensive. I think I'm probably the Caribbean fanboy of the forum at this point, since I practically can't make a post without mentioning it. Between the steel, the blade grind, the ergonomics, it's just a serious performing knife that keeps impressing me the more I use it. Some people hate the bumble bee scale colors, but they're easy enough to dye.

I am curious about the SE Tenacious though. I haven't tried one yet but it seems like an inexpensive alternative to the Caribbean (or rather, the Caribbean became a more expensive version of the Tenacious since the Tenacious was first). It has very similar ergonomics, similar blade shape, same full flat grind, but a different lock. It's also like 1/4 the price of a Caribbean, so it's another good option for those who want a cheap way to dip their toes in the water. I'm mostly curious how the steel performs in SE so I may end up buying one myself eventually.

So I have an SE Dragonfly Salt en route... I was eyeballing both the DLC SE Para3 LW & the Harpy, although I like the harpy a little more I think, but I already have the Lil' Matriarch and my new Wharnie SE Delica both in VG10 so I think I might go with the SE Para3 first given it's got BD1N which I don't have a serrated knife in it yet... any thoughts on which would be the better of the two? I think I'll probably end up with both in short order. I used my new SE Wharnie Delica this morning to break down some cardboard and it's a beast, it 'feels' a little different to use than the Lil' Matriarch, not sure that it's better or worse, just different.... and WAY faster & more fun than my using my sharpest PE blades. I'm really loving the fact that I get to learn how to use knives in a different way all over again, it's just plain fun! :D ;) :p :)

Cheers,

John


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