Knife that won’t chip, won’t roll?

[Drebs]

Ok, Ok I know, all knives will either chip or roll if abused and that geometry and heat treat, thickness behind the edge play a factor.

However for spyderco production knives at factory angles 15-20 dps, what won’t roll but also will resist chipping if maybe you slip and Knick something? Of corse again I understand it depends and what you hit and how hard. But the steel that you would wince knowing you probably put a chip in and are pleasantly surprised to find none.

My understanding is m4 and Rex-45, also maybe 4v but it’s not in production to my knowledge . So it seems to me high Rc knives won’t chip nor roll Which seems to be counter intuitive because I seems the higher hardness the more brittle but maybe that’s only for say dropping a knife or lateral pressure. Maybe it has more to do with micro structure?

So what’s the hardest that won’t roll but won’t chip, thus giving the easiest to sharpen steel with this attribute?

I’m really thinking Gayle Bradley 2 at 63.5 Rc which is what they are reported to run? Thoughts and any steels I’m missing( would love to hear the stainless steels with these attributes I’m
missing)? Would love Rex 45 but don’t want to invest in diamond stones for my edge pro (am using moldmasters now from Congress) suppose I could get diamond rods for my sharpmaker

[Cambertree]

Given your parameters, maybe 52100 or HAP40?

Those two steels have been pretty good in my experience. Cruwear might also interest you.

I use the Gayle Bradley 1 a fair bit and it is also pretty good at resisting both chipping and rolling, but I feel the above steels might be a little bit better.

If you really want the Bradley 2, go ahead and get it - I think you’d be happy with the steel. You rarely hear people complaining about insufficient strength or toughness in CPM M4 in ‘normal’ use.

Regarding stainlesses, AEB-L has high edge stability. In the Urban if pushed past its limits, it seems more inclined to roll than chip, which I think is preferable. Mine’s thinner than the factory behind the edge width though.

Welcome to the forum, by the way! :)

[VooDooChild]

Torch
Saw

[Wartstein]

.....
Would love Rex 45 but don’t want to invest in diamond stones for my edge pro (am using moldmasters now from Congress) suppose I could get diamond rods for my sharpmaker

Given your parameters, maybe 52100 or HAP40?

Those two steels have been pretty good in my experience. Cruwear might also interest you.
......

Welcome to the forum, Drebs! :)

I by far don´t have the experience and knowledge of Cambertree when it comes to steels, but I know HAP 40 pretty well, it is my favorite steel and I can second Cambertrees suggestion of it!

I would recommend getting diamond or CBN rods for your sharpmaker anyway (I just have experience with the CBNs, they work great), but that being said: I had no problems to keep my HAP 40 knives sharp when I had just the brown and white rods available.

Both the Stretch 1 and the Endura 4 sprints in HAP 40 can still be found for reasonable prices, and I think also the Delica (wharnie?).
Maybe also the Caly 3?

Now I´ve heard Spydercos REX45 is run harder than the HAP 40, so though those two are basically the same steel (also just what I´ve read) REX 45 might be harder to sharpen.

[The Meat man]

Your best bets are probably CPM REX 45 and CPM 4V.

BBB has shown that K390 is no slouch either when it comes to edge strength.

[Evil D]

I don't think any available steel is going to completely resist either chipping or rolling. What you're looking for is a very average steel with a balance of hardness and edge stability. Of the steels I've used, two immediately pop out that I haven't had chipping or rolling, and those are M4 and 52100. As you said it also has a lot (everything) to do with how they're sharpened.

[Sharp Guy]

I never have much of problem with any decent knife steels chipping or rolling but I'm always careful when cutting poly banding or cardboard where there might be staples, etc. I think any of the tool steels already mentioned would be a likely candidates. I have a lot of HAP 40, REX 45, Cruwear, 4V, and M4 and I like them all. Not really because I need the toughness but more because I like the edge they take.

I've been trying to get around to reprofiling one of my REX 45 knives. I'm pretty sure my Moldmaster stones will do the job just fine. I do have a set of bonded diamonds in case the SiC stones don't work out.

[JuPaul]

What you're looking for is edge stability, and as I understand it, that is best when steels have relatively high toughness at high hardness (and edge geometry, of course). So to get a better sense of that, you can look at Larrin's toughness vs hardness charts from his Knife Steel Nerd articles:

[JuPaul]

Some steels like rex45/hap40 aren't on those charts (yet, hopefully), but presumably it'd do pretty well. And 10v (k390) is on there, but at a lower hardness than spyderco runs it, but as mentioned above, BBB has shown that it performs very well in terms of edge stability at very high hardness.

[Wartstein]

What you're looking for is edge stability, and as I understand it, that is best when steels have relatively high toughness at high hardness (and edge geometry, of course). So to get a better sense of that, you can look at Larrin's toughness vs hardness charts from his Knife Steel Nerd articles:

To be clear: I am more than gratefull for Larrins work and that he shares it with us! :)

Still I may say: I hope he'll test and include Rex45/HAP40 in his charts eventually.

[JuPaul]

What you're looking for is edge stability, and as I understand it, that is best when steels have relatively high toughness at high hardness (and edge geometry, of course). So to get a better sense of that, you can look at Larrin's toughness vs hardness charts from his Knife Steel Nerd articles:

To be clear: I am more than gratefull for Larrins work and that he shares it with us! :)

Still I may say: I hope he'll test and include Rex45/HAP40 in his charts eventually.

Yes! Any time I have a question about a steel I look to his work first. We're very fortunate to have it! I think either Larrin or BBB mentioned in another thread that they planned to test rex45 when they could, but I think I've also read here that spyderco's hap40 can't be tested because of the cladding, though.

[spyderg]

Of my Spyderco Knives I’ve found my GB1 in M4 to be the most resistant to chipping or rolling. Cruwear Manix 2 next. My CRK in s35vn has been outstanding in that regard as have my GEC Knives in 1095.

[RustyIron]

So what’s the hardest that won’t roll but won’t chip, thus giving the easiest to sharpen steel with this attribute?
...
Would love Rex 45 but don’t want to invest in diamond stones for my edge pro

If there was a steel that won't chip and won't roll, then Spyderco could give up on all these inferior steels, and just stick with The One. You mentioned REX 45, and that's what I've been using recently. Under sensible use, it keeps an exceptional edge. It will show microscopic chipping, but not to the degree that it diminishes usability. But if you get stupid with the knife, the edge will become damaged just like anything else. Last week I did that, and while the chips were small and localized, they were enough to make me get out the Edge Pro that evening.

I understand the reluctance to throw down for diamond stones, but they've really allowed me to hit the next level of sharpening.

[TkoK83Spy]

As others have mentioned, for me my top 3 steels are Rex45, 4V and M4 (haven't tried K390 yet, though I'm sure I will be impressed once I do)

Knives in these steels are tough to come by, and sometimes a bit more expensive...but they are worth it!

[JuPaul]

So what’s the hardest that won’t roll but won’t chip, thus giving the easiest to sharpen steel with this attribute?
...
Would love Rex 45 but don’t want to invest in diamond stones for my edge pro

If there was a steel that won't chip and won't roll, then Spyderco could give up on all these inferior steels, and just stick with The One. You mentioned REX 45, and that's what I've been using recently. Under sensible use, it keeps an exceptional edge. It will show microscopic chipping, but not to the degree that it diminishes usability. But if you get stupid with the knife, the edge will become damaged just like anything else. Last week I did that, and while the chips were small and localized, they were enough to make me get out the Edge Pro that evening.

I understand the reluctance to throw down for diamond stones, but they've really allowed me to hit the next level of sharpening.

If ease of sharpening is a big concern, then you might consider looking for something with 52100 (for a non-stainless) or AEB-l (for a stainless). Based on the charts, both are very tough at decent hardnesses. But neither has great edge retention, so you'll have to sharpen more often. Always a trade-off.

Imo, cpm Cruwear will give you some of the best overall balance btw ease of sharpening, toughness, and hardness. Plus it's relatively corrosion-resistant for a non-stainless. Other steels like rex45 and k390, while awesome, will require diamond or cbn stones to sharpen.

Edit to add: I see hap40 recommend above, and I agree that'd be a great choice as well. Chemically it's the same as rex45, but it's not run quite as hard, so it's easier to sharpen.

[sal]

Hi Drebs,

Welcome to our forum.

sal

[Xplorer]

Hi Drebs. It seems to me that you're asking for balance. All steel properties involve some degree of compromise. A steel that has a good balance of properties will be the best option for resisting both rolling and chipping. Cruwear and 4V are extremely close to one another in their balance of hardness, toughness and overall edge stability. Cruwear is also more corrosion resistant and is a little easier for most people to sharpen really well. Although those are 2 ideal options IMO, there are others that have been suggested here that would be great too.
It's also very important that you understand that steel doesn't necessarily predict knife performance. Heat treat and geometry of the blade affect performance more than anything else, so choosing the blade design and the manufacturer are even more important than the steel. Spyderco does better than the other manufacturers with heat treating...and they offer more design choices too...so you're definitely looking in the right place! :) :spyder:

[dj moonbat]

Look at the graphs: CruWear is the steel closest to what you’re looking for.

[steelcity16]

I agree with both of the above posts. Cruwear is my go-to folding knife steel and 4V is right behind. I'd like to see what some Delta heat treated CPM-3V could do in some of Spydercos beefier folders as well. LC200N is another great one if you need rust resistance.

[Karl_H]

It looks like Shawn and Larrin will be testing REX 45 and Maxamet soon (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86503&start=140).

Based on the Cruscible data sheet for REX 45 (http://www.crucible.com/PDFs/DataSheets ... v12010.pdf), I would expect the CVN impact toughness of REX 40 used in Spyderco knives would be between 15 and 20 ft-lbs. Whereas the I would expect the toughness of Maxamet to be substantially less (< 5 ft-lbs).

I could be wrong, but I expect that chipping will be relatively rare at a 15-20 dps grind, with a steel that has an impact toughness >= 15 ft-lbs, unless you are using your knife for scraping, prying, chopping, etc. It seems like there plenty of people who are happy using the factory ground Maxamet, without chipping issues.

At lower grind angles, I think REX 45 probably will have the best resistance to rolling AND chipping. At more obtuse grind angles, Maxamet probably will be the most resistant to rolling AND chipping.

CPM 4V, Cruwear, Z-wear and M4 will probably will all roll more easily. However, they probably will not disappoint (if you invest in diamond or CBN abrasives). Otherwise, I would stick to hard alloys that do not contain vanadium or niobium.

"Deadboxhero" is probably the best person to answer this type of question.