G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
We do a lot of talking here about the different characteristics of the steel used for our blades, but very little is said about the material used for scales. To be clear, I am NOT interested in the discussion of patterns, grippiness, feel, etc. I'm curious about material characteristics, and why each is used.
G10 comes in sheets, so it seems easy to knock a few scales out quick and easy. FRN and FRCP appear to be injection molded, so there's a bit more commitment involved. But why is one material better than another? Stiffness? Toughness? Abrasion resistance? Acceptance of color? Machinability? Cost?
I have all three sitting right here in front of me, and I can't really discern any difference in physical characteristics with the tools available here at my desk.
G10 comes in sheets, so it seems easy to knock a few scales out quick and easy. FRN and FRCP appear to be injection molded, so there's a bit more commitment involved. But why is one material better than another? Stiffness? Toughness? Abrasion resistance? Acceptance of color? Machinability? Cost?
I have all three sitting right here in front of me, and I can't really discern any difference in physical characteristics with the tools available here at my desk.
- VooDooChild
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Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
I think I have come to like Goldens frn/frcp more than Sekis. When this usually comes up most people seem to prefer Sekis frn.
"Rome's greatest contribution to mathematics was the killing of Archimedes."
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
Differences that can (or at least could) be perceived in practical use:
- FRN/FRCP is a bit lighter
- G10 (if not smooth) is more of a pocket shredder, while still being less grippy than textured FRN/FRCP (they might be just more pocket friendly since the clip lands on the smooth Spyderco-logo)
- To me FRN feels better in hand (maybe cause FRN knives are contoured quite often
- On the flipside G10 can be easier contoured "do it yourself"
I think (but that is just a guess) in theory when pushed to the extreme under normal (and not very cold) temperatures FRN might be a bit stronger / more durable than G10 (would rather dent before it cracks or generally be a bit harder to crack). But if at all, that is of no practical relevance (and again, just a guess)
I personally clearly prefer FRN/FRCP over G10, but not so much at all that G10 would be a dealbreaker on a model I like.
- FRN/FRCP is a bit lighter
- G10 (if not smooth) is more of a pocket shredder, while still being less grippy than textured FRN/FRCP (they might be just more pocket friendly since the clip lands on the smooth Spyderco-logo)
- To me FRN feels better in hand (maybe cause FRN knives are contoured quite often
- On the flipside G10 can be easier contoured "do it yourself"
I think (but that is just a guess) in theory when pushed to the extreme under normal (and not very cold) temperatures FRN might be a bit stronger / more durable than G10 (would rather dent before it cracks or generally be a bit harder to crack). But if at all, that is of no practical relevance (and again, just a guess)
I personally clearly prefer FRN/FRCP over G10, but not so much at all that G10 would be a dealbreaker on a model I like.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
for me, it’s more about the fact that g10 is usually over a liner and frn/frcp is on linerless knives (all of mine are salts). they all have their place and i like them all, but for a work knife, i prefer liners and g10. they’re all strong enough to do just about any task, but lined g10 is more confidence inspiring.
keep your knife sharp and your focus sharper.
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
You should try lined FRN! Maybe you´d like it (and there are many such options out there, think of all the Seki FRN knives... or models like the Chap FRN (feels amazingly solid for how skinny the handle is) or the Sage LW...)ladybug93 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:39 amfor me, it’s more about the fact that g10 is usually over a liner and frn/frcp is on linerless knives (all of mine are salts). they all have their place and i like them all, but for a work knife, i prefer liners and g10. they’re all strong enough to do just about any task, but lined g10 is more confidence inspiring.
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
i recently tried a delica. it just wasn’t for me, but that was more handle shape than materials. i also don’t mind the couple extra ounces and think it’s kind of silly to make a lw model of a knife where you only shave an ounce. personally, i don’t get it. but, i’m not against lw models. like i said, i have a handful of salts that i love and my manix 2 lw (xhp) is probably my favorite knife ever. i happen to really like spyderco’s frn/frcp texturing. i just prefer the sturdiness of g10 with liners.Wartstein wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:42 amYou should try lined FRN! Maybe you´d like it (and there are many such options out there, think of all the Seki FRN knives... or models like the Chap FRN (feels amazingly solid for how skinny the handle is) or the Sage LW...)ladybug93 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 2:39 amfor me, it’s more about the fact that g10 is usually over a liner and frn/frcp is on linerless knives (all of mine are salts). they all have their place and i like them all, but for a work knife, i prefer liners and g10. they’re all strong enough to do just about any task, but lined g10 is more confidence inspiring.
keep your knife sharp and your focus sharper.
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
ladybug93 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 3:04 ami recently tried a delica. it just wasn’t for me, but that was more handle shape than materials. i also don’t mind the couple extra ounces and think it’s kind of silly to make a lw model of a knife where you only shave an ounce. personally, i don’t get it. but, i’m not against lw models. like i said, i have a handful of salts that i love and my manix 2 lw (xhp) is probably my favorite knife ever. i happen to really like spyderco’s frn/frcp texturing. i just prefer the sturdiness of g10 with liners.
Thanks for your reply!
Personally I think lined FRN is at least as sturdy as lined G10, if not sturdier (I am quite sure lined FRN is more robust when it comes to heavy impacts, but again, that is just a theoretical consideration, nothing that could come into play in real life...)
You´re right, for me the great thing on most "lightweight" versions is more the FRN instead of G10 than the actual (more or less) lighter weight!
Though there are situations where an ounce more or less can make a difference: Carry in very light garment, "floppy" pockets, and real lightweight mountaineerung / hiking, where one literally has to count every ounce (but on most hikes and climbs that does not matter much admittedly...)
Manix 2 LW: I know... GREAT model. And the combination of very light weight but rather large and wide size makes it very "unfloppy" in the pocket just by physics when running for example...
Top three going by pocket-time (update March 24):
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
- EDC: Endura thin red line ffg combo edge (VG10); Wayne Goddard PE (4V), Endela SE (VG10)
-Mountains/outdoors: Pac.Salt 1 SE (H1), Salt 2 SE (LC200N), and also Wayne Goddard PE (4V)
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Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
I'm curious about differences between frn and frcp. There is an old post from Sal on blade forums about frcp being stronger and/or tougher and not much more expensive than frn. He also said it would be used in the then upcoming native 5, but that either didn't happen or it's been mislabeled as frn everywhere for the better part of a decade.
The only knives I've seen listed as frcp are manix lw models and I don't own any (boo pin construction). I'm not sure why frcp isn't more widely used. Frn is a great, but it would be cool to see more frcp translucent scales for variety if nothing else.
The only knives I've seen listed as frcp are manix lw models and I don't own any (boo pin construction). I'm not sure why frcp isn't more widely used. Frn is a great, but it would be cool to see more frcp translucent scales for variety if nothing else.
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
I can't compare toughness, because I've never done this with G-10, but I once dropped an FRCP knife (Manix 2 LW, BD-1) 300 feet onto gravel and it was undamaged. I was extremely surprised.
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
i'm holding a manix 2 lw and native salt in my hands right now and the two definitely have a different look and feel. you'd have to have them side by side to ever tell a difference though because they are very similar (at least between these two models).Notsurewhy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:04 amI'm curious about differences between frn and frcp. There is an old post from Sal on blade forums about frcp being stronger and/or tougher and not much more expensive than frn. He also said it would be used in the then upcoming native 5, but that either didn't happen or it's been mislabeled as frn everywhere for the better part of a decade.
The only knives I've seen listed as frcp are manix lw models and I don't own any (boo pin construction). I'm not sure why frcp isn't more widely used. Frn is a great, but it would be cool to see more frcp translucent scales for variety if nothing else.
i don't care for the translucent scales. especially the yellow that people keep mentioning for a manix lw salt. different strokes for different folks though.
some people have mentioned that frn takes dye better than frcp. i've seen pictured of dyed manix 2 lws though, so there must be a way.
one other thing to note. i dropped my native salt on rough asphalt and it gouged some small chunks out of the scales. i've heard of the frcp on the m2lw breaking easier, but that hasn't been my experience.
oh, and 100% agree about pin construction. the day spyderco decided to relent on the silly policy of not letting their customers maintain their own knives, pins should've gone away.
keep your knife sharp and your focus sharper.
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
current collection:
C253GBBK, C258GFBL, C101GBBK2, C11GYW, C11FWNB20CV, C101GBN15V2, C101GODFDE2, C60GGY, C149G, C189, C101GBN2, MT35, C211TI, C242CF, C217GSSF, C101BN2, C85G2, C91BBK, C142G, C122GBBK, LBK, LYL3HB, C193, C28YL2, C11ZPGYD, C41YL5, C252G, C130G, PLKIT1
spyderco steels:
CPM 20CV, CPM 15V, CTS 204P, CPM CRUWEAR, CPM S30V, N690Co, M390, CPM MagnaCut, LC200N, CTS XHP, H1, 8Cr13MoV, GIN-1, CTS BD1, VG-10, VG-10/Damascus, 440C
- kennethsime
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Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
This has been brought up quite a few times. I believe the short answer, straight from the horse's mouth, is that FRCP is about the same cost as FRN, and offers more of what Spyderco wants in a knife.
With G-10, I think it's easier to use for small-batch knives, and also has more of a premium feel. Not quite micarta, but still almost a natural feel.
I like G-10 most days, but the LW models are quite nice for summer and anytime I'm wearing shorts. The action on the LWs isn't as good; if they could solve that problem I'd probably be a happy LW user more days than not.
With G-10, I think it's easier to use for small-batch knives, and also has more of a premium feel. Not quite micarta, but still almost a natural feel.
I like G-10 most days, but the LW models are quite nice for summer and anytime I'm wearing shorts. The action on the LWs isn't as good; if they could solve that problem I'd probably be a happy LW user more days than not.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
Thanks, kids. To quote Sal's post in that other forum, FRCP is "tougher, stronger, has more color capability and is not significantly more expensive."
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
From what I've read on various material spec sheets, G10 has a higher tensile strength, compressive strength, and Izod Impact Test rating than 30% Glass Fiber Reinforced Polyamide-Nylon (I am assuming that Spyderco's FRN and FRCP are chemically similar to this material). That said, you probably aren't any more likely to break an FRN/FRCP handle than a G10 handle during normal knife use, although I think G10 being "tougher" probably helps explain why Spyderco's MBC-rated folders—the folders that Spyderco considers its "extreme use" designs via internal testing such as the Li'l Temperance 3, Yojimbo 2, Manix 2, and Chinook 4—all have G10 handle scales on top of steel liners (though if I had to guess, the lock designs and the steel liners of these knives are probably more responsible for them achieving this rating than the G10 and any of those knives would probably retain their MBC rating even if you swapped out the G10 scales for FRN or FRCP scales).RustyIron wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:44 pmWe do a lot of talking here about the different characteristics of the steel used for our blades, but very little is said about the material used for scales. To be clear, I am NOT interested in the discussion of patterns, grippiness, feel, etc. I'm curious about material characteristics, and why each is used.
Being that they are injection-molded, the start-up costs to make FRN/FRCP scales are higher than the start-up cost to make G10 scales because of the need to create molds for the injection-molding process. However, when producing the scales in large quantities over time, FRN/FRCP scales are significantly cheaper per unit because the molds only need to be made once (saving on machining time) and can be reused, whereas G10 scales have to be individually cut and shaped each time they are made.RustyIron wrote: ↑Wed Jun 03, 2020 9:44 pmG10 comes in sheets, so it seems easy to knock a few scales out quick and easy. FRN and FRCP appear to be injection molded, so there's a bit more commitment involved. But why is one material better than another? Stiffness? Toughness? Abrasion resistance? Acceptance of color? Machinability? Cost?
I have read on a couple of forums that FRCP takes color more easily than FRN, and that it is tougher, but I haven't seen anything in the way of empirical side-by-side testing, so take that information for what it's worth.
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
Thanks for the input. I was curious, and your post caused me to leap down the rabbit hole of materials research. After reading up a little bit more, I'm now thinking that the primary importance isn't about the durability of the material--they're all pretty good. The most important part is the cool colors, the pretty patterns, and how you like the feel of it.
- VooDooChild
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Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
I think g10 is tougher, but I like "cheap" frn in a real work knife. Drop it, get paint on it, get chemicals on it, etc...
There had to be some luck involved in that.TomAiello wrote: I can't compare toughness, because I've never done this with G-10, but I once dropped an FRCP knife (Manix 2 LW, BD-1) 300 feet onto gravel and it was undamaged. I was extremely surprised.
"Rome's greatest contribution to mathematics was the killing of Archimedes."
Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
Maybe some luck, but the Manix LW lands softer than a heavier model at the same size/shape does, when dropped.VooDooChild wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 11:24 pmI think g10 is tougher, but I like "cheap" frn in a real work knife. Drop it, get paint on it, get chemicals on it, etc...
There had to be some luck involved in that.TomAiello wrote: I can't compare toughness, because I've never done this with G-10, but I once dropped an FRCP knife (Manix 2 LW, BD-1) 300 feet onto gravel and it was undamaged. I was extremely surprised.
- kennethsime
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Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
Yea, honestly I think that's it man.RustyIron wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:06 pmThanks for the input. I was curious, and your post caused me to leap down the rabbit hole of materials research. After reading up a little bit more, I'm now thinking that the primary importance isn't about the durability of the material--they're all pretty good. The most important part is the cool colors, the pretty patterns, and how you like the feel of it.
I like G-10 a lot, and I know it's probably a tougher, stronger, lighter material, but I'm a sucker for Micarta. I don't really care about anything else once I feel Micarta; it's just so nice in hand.
I'm happiest with Micarta and Tool Steel.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
Top four in rotation: K390 + GCM PM2, ZCarta Shaman, Crucarta PM2, K390 + GCM Straight Spine Stretch.
- Doc Dan
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Re: G10, FRCP, FRN -- What's the difference?
I'm glad you shared this story because I was going to remind you to do so.
G10 is stronger for sheer load strength, but it will chip and get dinged up. It also wears smooth over time, with use. Liners are not really needed.
FRN (fiberglass reinforced nylon) is strong, feels nice in the hand, but is more flexible. It can be used with or without liners, but inner construction is key. The Salt and Pac Salt knives have been linerless and used hard without issue for years.
FRCP is much stiffer than FRN and I think I remember Sal saying it is stronger than FRN. It does not feel warm in the hand like FRN, but it is stout stuff. I have seen cracks in photos, once. However, I think it was something done on purpose to get that result. The stuff is strong and tough.
I like all three for different reasons. G10 can be nicely polished so that ivory G10 looks like actual ivory. Black G10 can be made to look exactly like Kudu horn. So, for decorative knives, G10 wins. Also, G10 is pretty inert and does not react to chemicals, usually. I also think G10 is used in construction somehow.
FRN makes a cool GITD. It is not really clear. FRCP is clear and it can be made translucent very easily with a drop of color or two. Great materials, all.
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Follow the Christ, the King,
Live pure, speak true, right wrong, follow the King--
Else, wherefore born?" (Tennyson)
NRA Life Member
Spydernation 0050