Does k390=end of zdp189?

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JKOLLER
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Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby JKOLLER » Fri May 08, 2020 2:10 pm

I am super excited about the new k390 knives coming out of seki city, already pre-ordered an endura! But i wondered if this is a sign of moving away from zdp-189?

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby dan31 » Fri May 08, 2020 6:02 pm

We will have to wait and see if K390 cannibalizes the ZDP-189 sales. Sal has said the ZDP-189 is very expensive steel. I would guess similar costs to grind at the factory. I like ZDP-189 so it could be time to pickup a back up in the model you prefer.

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Evil D » Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm

I very much doubt it but time will tell. I really don't see ZDP or VG10 going anywhere any time soon.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
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Albatross
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Albatross » Fri May 08, 2020 6:27 pm

There are pros and cons to each, with enough differences to warrant Spyderco keeping both, in my opinion.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby kennethsime » Fri May 08, 2020 7:02 pm

I sure hope not!

I'm not sure how added cost is associated with offering different blade steels and frn scales, but I love the variety offered by Spyderco in the Delica & Endura lightweights. I would hope to see this variety increase over time, rather than decrease.

I would especially hate to see the ZDP-189 / British Racing Green combo go away as it was my first, and one of my favorites in the Spyderco lineup.
Lost to the Ages: C90GRE Stretch 1 ZDP-189 British Racing Green | C28GRE2 Dragonfly 2 ZDP-189 British Racing Green
C12BK2W Matriarch 2 VG-10 Emerson Open | C81G2 Para Military 2 S30V

Currently Rotating: C81GPRGR2 Para Military 2 K390 Ranger Green | C223GPRGR Para 3 K390 Ranger Green
C90FPIV2 Stretch 2 Straight Spine, VG-10 Rit Dye'd Dark Apple Green | C223GP Para 3 S30V Green Canvas Micarta
C41BORE5 Native 5 Lightweight REX 45 Burnt Orange | C223BORE Para 3 Lightweight REX 45 Burnt Orange
C101GY2 Manix 2 Lightweight Maxamet Gray | C28GFG Dragonfly VG-10 Foliage Green
MT27 Mule Team 27 Micro-Melt PD#1 Ranger Green | C36GPGR Military 204p Dark Green

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Bill1170 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:18 pm

I know that ZDP-189 isn’t as stainless as some other alloys, but in my usage it’s still reasonably stainless. Is K390 similar to ZDP in stain resistance? I have zero experience with K390.

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Albatross
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Albatross » Fri May 08, 2020 7:27 pm

Bill1170 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:18 pm
I know that ZDP-189 isn’t as stainless as some other alloys, but in my usage it’s still reasonably stainless. Is K390 similar to ZDP in stain resistance? I have zero experience with K390.
In my experience, K390 is noticeably less stain resistant than ZDP-189.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Bill1170 » Fri May 08, 2020 7:38 pm

Albatross wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:27 pm
Bill1170 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:18 pm
I know that ZDP-189 isn’t as stainless as some other alloys, but in my usage it’s still reasonably stainless. Is K390 similar to ZDP in stain resistance? I have zero experience with K390.
In my experience, K390 is noticeably less stain resistant than ZDP-189.
Thank you. In that case, I’d say that K390 would not be a good replacement for ZDP-189, for my uses.

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby zuludelta » Fri May 08, 2020 7:51 pm

Bill1170 wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 7:18 pm
I know that ZDP-189 isn’t as stainless as some other alloys, but in my usage it’s still reasonably stainless. Is K390 similar to ZDP in stain resistance? I have zero experience with K390.
Larrin (metallurgist and the king of Knife Steel Nerds) wrote an article comparing the corrosion resistance of various knife steels (based on empirical observations and values extrapolated using Thermo-Calc)—he has ZDP-189 rated as a bit more corrosion resistant than K390.

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JKOLLER
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby JKOLLER » Fri May 08, 2020 8:42 pm

I would like to see them both stay in the line up in the future!

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Bloke » Fri May 08, 2020 8:57 pm

I don’t think so.

From what I understand ZDP-189 was developed specifically to be a blade steel and shines in its intended use.

K390 was developed to be a wear resistant cold forming and punch steel though by all accounts works well in knife blades. :)
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208 tim
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby 208 tim » Fri May 08, 2020 9:10 pm

I like both steels. Hopefully we won't have to make a choice.

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby JMM » Fri May 08, 2020 9:42 pm

Evil D wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm
I very much doubt it but time will tell. I really don't see ZDP or VG10 going anywhere any time soon.

That's really interesting to hear you say, I have wondered if K390 & SPY27 would end or greatly diminish at least VG-10, ZDP-189, and CTS-BD1N in the Spyderco portfolio -- it will definitely be interesting to see how that all works out, I imagine sales will ultimately be the deciding factor...

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Baron Mind » Fri May 08, 2020 11:05 pm

These two steels have vastly different chemistries, and I seriously hope we are lucky enough to have both as regular production options.

Having another exotic steel in their lineup that noone else offers is just another feather in Spyderco's cap.

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zuludelta
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby zuludelta » Fri May 08, 2020 11:15 pm

JMM wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:42 pm
I have wondered if K390 & SPY27 would end or greatly diminish at least VG-10, ZDP-189, and CTS-BD1N in the Spyderco portfolio -- it will definitely be interesting to see how that all works out, I imagine sales will ultimately be the deciding factor...
I think VG-10 will remain a staple steel in Spyderco's catalogue for as long as the company continues to have certain models made in Seki City or until another steel displaces VG-10 as the premier cutlery-grade high-carbon stainless steel in use in Japan.

That said, if Spyderco were to somehow move away from VG-10 as the standard steel for its Seki City models like the Dragonfly, Delica, Endura, and Stretch, instead of SPY27, I think the most likely replacement would be another Takefu cutlery-grade stainless steel like Super Gold2 or Cobalt Special.
Last edited by zuludelta on Fri May 08, 2020 11:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby ZrowsN1s » Fri May 08, 2020 11:20 pm

My friend has absolutely tortured his ZDP, uses it on food, has taken it swimming, never really cleans it, just sharpens and wipes it off. I remember a few faint rust spots the first week he had it, but after that, nothing. Very stainless after you get a slight patina on it. He is not gentle or shy in his blade use, Im impressed how well ZDP has stood up to his edc use for over a year. Just gifted him a K390 Ladybug, I'll be curious to see how it holds up in comparison.
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Cambertree » Fri May 08, 2020 11:58 pm

Why should it? Edge retention in Larrin's CATRA tests was about the same, with the bonus of higher corrosion resistance in ZDP189.

Toughness is probably higher in thin edges in K390, but I've used ZDP189 knives in 'hard real world use' for a while now and have no complaints.

From memory, I think it was Cliff Stamp who made the point that the blade steels used in the Seki line like Super Blue, VG10 and ZDP189 pretty much covered the market niches of a low carbide, high attainable sharpness non stainless steel; a balanced everyday stainless, and a high wear resistance steel. I doubt that even most knife steel nerds would be able to consistently identify the difference between each of those steels and their common competitors in those three categories, if they were given identically ground knives in blind tests.

He also noted that when microbevelling edges, simply applying an apex that was more acute by 2 1/2 degrees on VG10 would result in similar edge retention to CPM S30V.

All three of those steels, including V-Toku 2 and the Shirogami/White Paper steels were specifically designed to be high quality, enduring bladesteels.

Of course, like everyone else, I'm very eager to see how SPY27 performs relative to them.

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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby jdw » Sat May 09, 2020 7:12 am

I sure hope it doesn't. I don't have a lot of experience using K390 but ZDP holds a fine edge for me pretty much longer than any steel that I have regularly used.
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Evil D
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Evil D » Sat May 09, 2020 7:18 am

JMM wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 9:42 pm
Evil D wrote:
Fri May 08, 2020 6:09 pm
I very much doubt it but time will tell. I really don't see ZDP or VG10 going anywhere any time soon.

That's really interesting to hear you say, I have wondered if K390 & SPY27 would end or greatly diminish at least VG-10, ZDP-189, and CTS-BD1N in the Spyderco portfolio -- it will definitely be interesting to see how that all works out, I imagine sales will ultimately be the deciding factor...


I think there's a lot more to replacing a steel than making another steel that's "better", especially if we're talking about Japan or some of the makers that may be more comfortable with certain steels. Those two steels have managed to keep their place as the standard and high end options from Japan for a very long time now, while dozens of other steels have come along to challenge their place. It may also just be a matter of cost and availability. I may be completely wrong though, I never thought we'd see S30V coming out of Seki either.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

Skidoosh
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Re: Does k390=end of zdp189?

Postby Skidoosh » Sat May 09, 2020 8:08 am

No, the reason is ZDP-189 is a Japanese sourced steel and I think it would be easier to source for many of the Japanese sourced knives over K390.


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